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on this episode of skeptico

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i think consciousness studies is the

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most exciting frontier in science right

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now i'm really burned out on cosmology

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and particle physics they're still

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peddling multiverses and string theory

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and it seems uh stale and i don't even

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think it's very scientific but by

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default

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i still am a materialist to the extent

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that i think if there will be

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understanding

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of consciousness and mind in general and

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all the you know the different aspects

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of the mind it will come

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from

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probing the physiological

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underpinnings of the mind which as far

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as we know is the brain itself what i

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have a problem with is the fundamental

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assumption the paradigm and that is that

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mind equals brain that you are this

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biological robot in a meaningless

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universe but the real problem that bugs

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me

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is that we have good evidence

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that that has been falsified and even if

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you look at the story arc like i laid

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out there hey 20 years ago no one was

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talking about uh consciousness being an

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emergent property and there wasn't some

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discovery that brought that on it was a

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default a fallback position because

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these guys who are peddling this

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consciousness is an illusion thing they

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just got beaten down by the data

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stay with us

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welcome to skeptico where we explore

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controversial science with leading

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researchers thinkers and their critics

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i'm your host alex sacaris and on this

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episode of skeptico we talk about

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science journalism and while i've often

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been very critical of science journalism

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because it seems to be all about

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maintaining the status quo and ignoring

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data that goes against the party line i

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can't say that about today's guest john

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horgan is not only a fabulous writer a

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fabulous science writer but someone

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who's willing to mix it up and sweep

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away the old ideas and take a fresh look

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at what's new and where science is

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really leading us of course rather than

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spend an hour singing the praises of

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john horgan's work which i could do i

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spent an hour picking and poking at the

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points in his writing and thinking that

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i disagree with but then this is

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skeptico that's what we do

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so we talk about a number of topics in

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this interview of course the state of

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science we talk about near-death

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experience we talk a lot about

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consciousness research we even talk

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about esp and telepathy and rupert

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sheldrick's work

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all in all it was terrific to have john

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on the show and i thank him so much for

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joining me i hope you enjoy this

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interview with john horgan

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today we welcome award-winning science

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writer and author john horgan to

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skeptico john has written a great deal

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about scientific dogmatism materialism

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consciousness and so many of the other

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topics we love to talk about here on

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skeptico he's also written several books

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that we'll want to talk about in this

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interview including the end of science

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facing the limits of knowledge in the

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twilight of the scientific age fantastic

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title rational mysticism spirituality

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meets science in the search for

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enlightenment and the end of war john

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it's great to have you on skeptico

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thanks so much for joining me

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thanks for having me on alex

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you know first off i have to

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congratulate you

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on this fabulous career that you've been

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able to put together you're really a

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terrific writer but as you know that

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doesn't often translate into having a

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successful sustainable career i think

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you give hope to people who

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love to write and love science and

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especially people who aren't afraid to

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ruffle feathers but you know don't know

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if there really is a path for them to

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really be honest in their writing so i

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guess the first question is

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you know how did a provocateur like you

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make it as a science writer and number

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two is it possible still in this day and

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age for someone to

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do the same

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i certainly hope so uh

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thanks for that very flattering

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introduction you know i

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when i got into science journalism it

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was in the

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in the early 80s

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and i think i entered it

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uh as a conventional what i call g whiz

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science journalist in other words i i

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love science i always loved it since i

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was a little kid

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and um after i

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lapsed from catholicism i thought of

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science as being

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our way to

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ultimate truth and understanding of the

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universe and understanding uh

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of ourselves and i wanted to

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um

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explore all these ways that science has

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of uh

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of telling us what's going on in the

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world

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and uh you know at at all levels

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revealing the the deepest possible

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truths that humans uh can learn and i

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wanted to convey

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that

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knowledge

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to the public from the scientists uh

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themselves which i think is

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how most science journalists

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uh look at their profession

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you know being the conduit from the

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scientists to the public and celebrating

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science

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and then

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something happened you know so that was

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early 80s and i started working at

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scientific american

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and i started i went through a period of

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disillusionment

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and that's when i became the you know

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the provocateur that you described and

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somebody who is actually quite

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critical of

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of many aspects of science and some of

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the things that scientists

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are saying and

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and began

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getting quite skeptical of

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string theory and unified theories of

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consciousness

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and some of these uh really exciting

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uh avenues for

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explaining uh explaining the world and

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and just in terms of

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how i've made a living at it

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uh i i do feel extraordinarily lucky

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that i have been able

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basically to do what i want to do

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as a writer which is not that

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easy i've had some tough times um

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you know i had a very rocky period at

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scientific american after uh the end of

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science came out there there

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there have been people who have thought

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my style of journalism is bad for

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bad for science i bet

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and uh you know and see me as being

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anti-science when i think of myself as

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being

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i think my my kind of skepticism is

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absolutely essential for science

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absolutely

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but uh you know i'm i i do love

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debunking i love pointing out when

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when really smart people out there are

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saying things that might not necessarily

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uh be so i have found an audience

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but it's not you know i sometimes envy

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uh

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other journalists who have a kind of

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tribal association you know that they

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may have found one theory one ideology

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that uh that they really believe in and

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they they promote that and there are

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lots of other people feel the same way i

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feel kind of like

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a lone wolf roaming around saying nasty

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things about about pretty much

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everything out there

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and it hasn't been easy always but but

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um it's been so much fun and i would

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encourage if there are any aspiring

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science writers out there i think right

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now

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more than ever we really need tough

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critical

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science journalism we've got way too

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much g-whiz science journalism

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uh and we need we need the critical

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style as a as a counterweight to that oh

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absolutely i couldn't agree more and you

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know i think it's that skeptical

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irreverence that you show that really

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shines through and i know some people

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that it does probably rub them the wrong

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way but i do think it's essential and

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the other thing i think that i i loved

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you know

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one

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thing i found in preparation for this

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interview was an interview did you did

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with the nyu school of journalism it's a

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great background or if anyone wants to

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learn more about john and his history

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and it's really a little bit of inside

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baseball in terms of science journalism

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but that's what i really loved about it

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and i love the story that you tell

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about

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when you were duped you know when you

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went in there with the guy with the

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white lab coat and you just wrote down

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everything he said and

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as you described it it was somewhat of a

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turning point

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for you to really trust your instincts

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in terms of i get the sense that you're

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someone who doesn't

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suffer fools mildly and is probably

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pretty skeptical at the beginning but

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like most journalists you know and you

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get in the the pomp and circumstance of

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this guy is the authority and has the

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white coat so you kind of were seduced

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by that but then when you came out of

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that i think that really was somewhat of

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a turning point for you it sounded like

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it yeah um well it was there were a

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number of times that happened early in

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my career because i was an english major

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and then i went to graduate school in

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journalism i loved reading

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uh popular

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accounts of science books and articles

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in the new yorker and new york times and

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and that sort of thing but then here i

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am and i and i first started working for

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a magazine for electrical engineers and

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i would encounter some of these

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scientists and they're just

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they're just throwing all this jargon at

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me and and some of them i could i could

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tell we're deliberately trying to

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intimidate and impress me

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um with the the uh you know sort of

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technical

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uh detail and i and i did feel insecure

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i think most science journalists would

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in a situation like that at some point i

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realized that if somebody is not

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explaining his work

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uh

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clearly enough so that i i can

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understand it then that's not

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necessarily my problem it might be that

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person's problem and i started trusting

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my own instincts if somebody is telling

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me

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it's not always necessarily

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sometimes it can be that i don't just

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understand it well enough at first

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but

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often it would turn out to be

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especially in this day and age of

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00:11:07,829 --> 00:11:05,040
interdisciplinary

286
00:11:10,150 --> 00:11:07,839
uh work you know i mean scientists have

287
00:11:11,910 --> 00:11:10,160
to write in that manner because their

288
00:11:14,069 --> 00:11:11,920
work is often being

289
00:11:15,509 --> 00:11:14,079
read and used by people outside of their

290
00:11:18,310 --> 00:11:15,519
immediate field right

291
00:11:19,190 --> 00:11:18,320
that's right um so it's

292
00:11:20,389 --> 00:11:19,200
you know

293
00:11:22,230 --> 00:11:20,399
it's

294
00:11:24,310 --> 00:11:22,240
this is actually an interesting time in

295
00:11:25,590 --> 00:11:24,320
science journalism i've done a couple of

296
00:11:29,430 --> 00:11:25,600
pieces

297
00:11:31,910 --> 00:11:29,440
lately on this question of experts

298
00:11:33,350 --> 00:11:31,920
versus the public and how deferential

299
00:11:35,110 --> 00:11:33,360
the public should be and even

300
00:11:36,389 --> 00:11:35,120
journalists should be

301
00:11:39,829 --> 00:11:36,399
toward

302
00:11:42,790 --> 00:11:39,839
scientific experts or experts in even in

303
00:11:44,310 --> 00:11:42,800
non-scientific fields and especially

304
00:11:46,150 --> 00:11:44,320
because of

305
00:11:48,389 --> 00:11:46,160
global warming the debate over global

306
00:11:50,389 --> 00:11:48,399
warming and vaccines and you know where

307
00:11:52,949 --> 00:11:50,399
the there are these sort of populist

308
00:11:55,190 --> 00:11:52,959
movements uh challenging

309
00:11:56,870 --> 00:11:55,200
some of these experts i'm not saying i

310
00:11:59,269 --> 00:11:56,880
agree

311
00:12:02,150 --> 00:11:59,279
with those specific challenges but what

312
00:12:03,509 --> 00:12:02,160
concerns me is that some journalists and

313
00:12:05,110 --> 00:12:03,519
scientists are saying you know the

314
00:12:06,790 --> 00:12:05,120
public should shut up and just listen to

315
00:12:09,030 --> 00:12:06,800
what the experts are saying and i

316
00:12:12,470 --> 00:12:09,040
couldn't disagree with that more i think

317
00:12:15,590 --> 00:12:12,480
that's undemocratic i think that is not

318
00:12:18,790 --> 00:12:15,600
in the spirit of science as i see it and

319
00:12:22,150 --> 00:12:18,800
it also would mean that it delegitimizes

320
00:12:24,710 --> 00:12:22,160
people like me who are non-experts

321
00:12:28,150 --> 00:12:24,720
uh but who are

322
00:12:29,670 --> 00:12:28,160
uh paid it's my profession to go to the

323
00:12:31,990 --> 00:12:29,680
scientists and try to figure out what

324
00:12:33,110 --> 00:12:32,000
they're saying and not just to

325
00:12:36,150 --> 00:12:33,120
uh

326
00:12:38,069 --> 00:12:36,160
just to market their ideas to the public

327
00:12:40,550 --> 00:12:38,079
but to

328
00:12:42,230 --> 00:12:40,560
challenge them to consider them to weigh

329
00:12:45,430 --> 00:12:42,240
the evidence for and against those

330
00:12:47,110 --> 00:12:45,440
claims and try to tell people if i think

331
00:12:49,990 --> 00:12:47,120
that maybe

332
00:12:52,389 --> 00:12:50,000
they're being sold a bill of goods

333
00:12:54,150 --> 00:12:52,399
great i mean i think anyone who's

334
00:12:57,509 --> 00:12:54,160
thoughtful would see it that is an

335
00:12:59,910 --> 00:12:57,519
absolute vital role for someone to fill

336
00:13:03,030 --> 00:12:59,920
and you do a great job of filling it but

337
00:13:04,949 --> 00:13:03,040
okay enough nicey nicey stuff when i

338
00:13:07,750 --> 00:13:04,959
sent you all this stuff

339
00:13:10,310 --> 00:13:07,760
you replied like i knew you would and

340
00:13:13,110 --> 00:13:10,320
saying bring it on and i love that

341
00:13:15,350 --> 00:13:13,120
because in the interviews i do i often

342
00:13:17,829 --> 00:13:15,360
have to kind of dance around and kind of

343
00:13:18,790 --> 00:13:17,839
play nice with people before i can

344
00:13:21,110 --> 00:13:18,800
really

345
00:13:23,269 --> 00:13:21,120
let go with what i've discovered and

346
00:13:25,190 --> 00:13:23,279
match it up with what's out there in

347
00:13:26,949 --> 00:13:25,200
terms of mainstream science so

348
00:13:28,710 --> 00:13:26,959
we're gonna have a good time i think

349
00:13:30,230 --> 00:13:28,720
you've talked about a lot of the issues

350
00:13:31,350 --> 00:13:30,240
as i described earlier that we care

351
00:13:34,629 --> 00:13:31,360
about

352
00:13:37,110 --> 00:13:34,639
on this show so i'm looking forward to

353
00:13:39,190 --> 00:13:37,120
this kind of bring it down in a very

354
00:13:40,629 --> 00:13:39,200
fun way and in a respectful way because

355
00:13:42,790 --> 00:13:40,639
i think what you do

356
00:13:45,190 --> 00:13:42,800
is absolutely great and i think where

357
00:13:48,550 --> 00:13:45,200
you're coming from as you just described

358
00:13:50,150 --> 00:13:48,560
is absolutely perfect so if i'm wrong i

359
00:13:52,949 --> 00:13:50,160
want to know that i'm wrong i don't want

360
00:13:54,470 --> 00:13:52,959
to go out and spew a bunch of nonsense

361
00:13:56,949 --> 00:13:54,480
that doesn't really

362
00:13:59,590 --> 00:13:56,959
stand up to scrutiny and i get the sense

363
00:14:01,670 --> 00:13:59,600
that you're the same way like that first

364
00:14:03,350 --> 00:14:01,680
or those first series of interviews were

365
00:14:05,509 --> 00:14:03,360
you don't want to be bullshitted didn't

366
00:14:07,350 --> 00:14:05,519
the terence mckenna uh

367
00:14:09,189 --> 00:14:07,360
famous who made frames yeah i want to be

368
00:14:10,069 --> 00:14:09,199
able to tell from shinola i mean

369
00:14:13,189 --> 00:14:10,079
that's

370
00:14:14,790 --> 00:14:13,199
ultimately my goal so

371
00:14:16,150 --> 00:14:14,800
so yeah let's jump in and talk about

372
00:14:18,069 --> 00:14:16,160
consciousness i think we're going to

373
00:14:21,590 --> 00:14:18,079
come back to talking about consciousness

374
00:14:23,150 --> 00:14:21,600
again and again i think that there is

375
00:14:25,269 --> 00:14:23,160
somewhat of a

376
00:14:27,509 --> 00:14:25,279
misunderstanding out there in terms of

377
00:14:30,310 --> 00:14:27,519
the consciousness research that i've

378
00:14:31,509 --> 00:14:30,320
looked at i think it gets misinterpreted

379
00:14:32,550 --> 00:14:31,519
and often

380
00:14:35,189 --> 00:14:32,560
spun

381
00:14:38,310 --> 00:14:35,199
in a news cycle kind of way within the

382
00:14:41,509 --> 00:14:38,320
science media and the first point that i

383
00:14:43,750 --> 00:14:41,519
brought to your attention was this whole

384
00:14:45,910 --> 00:14:43,760
charade of

385
00:14:48,150 --> 00:14:45,920
property of consciousness that is you'll

386
00:14:50,550 --> 00:14:48,160
hear folks say oh

387
00:14:53,590 --> 00:14:50,560
we've seen the light consciousness is

388
00:14:55,829 --> 00:14:53,600
not an illusion because we know

389
00:14:59,350 --> 00:14:55,839
20 years ago that was the dominant

390
00:15:01,189 --> 00:14:59,360
paradigm that was the idea that

391
00:15:03,590 --> 00:15:01,199
consciousness was some kind of an

392
00:15:06,550 --> 00:15:03,600
epiphenomenon of the brain daniel

393
00:15:08,790 --> 00:15:06,560
dennett famous philosopher said yeah

394
00:15:11,030 --> 00:15:08,800
consciousness is an illusion and we

395
00:15:13,670 --> 00:15:11,040
built this whole materialistic

396
00:15:15,990 --> 00:15:13,680
neuroscience on that assumption but in

397
00:15:18,710 --> 00:15:16,000
the last 20 years there's been more and

398
00:15:22,550 --> 00:15:18,720
more of an eroding away at that

399
00:15:25,430 --> 00:15:22,560
simplistic idea and now these guys have

400
00:15:28,310 --> 00:15:25,440
backpedaled into this idea of well maybe

401
00:15:30,550 --> 00:15:28,320
it's not exactly an epiphenomenon but ah

402
00:15:32,710 --> 00:15:30,560
it's an emergent property of the brain

403
00:15:34,790 --> 00:15:32,720
that's what it is even though we don't

404
00:15:35,750 --> 00:15:34,800
know what the constituent elements are

405
00:15:38,470 --> 00:15:35,760
even though we don't know when

406
00:15:40,389 --> 00:15:38,480
consciousness begins when it ends what

407
00:15:42,629 --> 00:15:40,399
are the necessary and sufficient causes

408
00:15:44,870 --> 00:15:42,639
of human consciousness but we can kind

409
00:15:46,949 --> 00:15:44,880
of just throw this blanket over it and

410
00:15:49,430 --> 00:15:46,959
say oh it's an emergent property of the

411
00:15:51,189 --> 00:15:49,440
brain are you buying that

412
00:15:52,829 --> 00:15:51,199
well

413
00:15:56,230 --> 00:15:52,839
i think

414
00:15:57,749 --> 00:15:56,240
that consciousness studies neuroscience

415
00:16:00,470 --> 00:15:57,759
in general

416
00:16:03,350 --> 00:16:00,480
i think is the most exciting

417
00:16:05,670 --> 00:16:03,360
frontier in science right now i'm really

418
00:16:08,069 --> 00:16:05,680
i'm kind of burned out on cosmology and

419
00:16:11,110 --> 00:16:08,079
particle physics they're still in there

420
00:16:13,269 --> 00:16:11,120
they're still peddling multi-verses and

421
00:16:15,430 --> 00:16:13,279
string theory and the same kind of stuff

422
00:16:17,430 --> 00:16:15,440
that i was writing about 25 years ago

423
00:16:18,389 --> 00:16:17,440
and it was pretty novel then and now it

424
00:16:20,949 --> 00:16:18,399
just

425
00:16:22,470 --> 00:16:20,959
it seems stale and i don't even think

426
00:16:25,670 --> 00:16:22,480
it's very scientific

427
00:16:27,990 --> 00:16:25,680
um anymore but but neuroscience the

428
00:16:31,269 --> 00:16:28,000
attempt to under you know what i i love

429
00:16:33,350 --> 00:16:31,279
the fact that the greatest mystery

430
00:16:34,470 --> 00:16:33,360
uh in the universe

431
00:16:37,829 --> 00:16:34,480
is

432
00:16:40,710 --> 00:16:37,839
right inside the the skull of each and

433
00:16:43,189 --> 00:16:40,720
every one of us the greatest mystery is

434
00:16:46,069 --> 00:16:43,199
what makes it possible to have for us to

435
00:16:48,550 --> 00:16:46,079
have this conversation right now and to

436
00:16:51,269 --> 00:16:48,560
understand each other's uh to the extent

437
00:16:53,110 --> 00:16:51,279
that we do understand each other

438
00:16:54,230 --> 00:16:53,120
i've been writing about consciousness

439
00:16:56,470 --> 00:16:54,240
for

440
00:16:58,389 --> 00:16:56,480
almost 30 years now

441
00:17:02,470 --> 00:16:58,399
and

442
00:17:03,269 --> 00:17:02,480
by default i still am a materialist i i

443
00:17:05,429 --> 00:17:03,279
still

444
00:17:06,470 --> 00:17:05,439
to the extent that i think

445
00:17:09,669 --> 00:17:06,480
um

446
00:17:10,549 --> 00:17:09,679
if there will be understanding

447
00:17:13,429 --> 00:17:10,559
of

448
00:17:15,029 --> 00:17:13,439
consciousness and mind in general and

449
00:17:17,590 --> 00:17:15,039
all the you know the different aspects

450
00:17:18,870 --> 00:17:17,600
of the mind it will come

451
00:17:21,669 --> 00:17:18,880
from

452
00:17:25,350 --> 00:17:21,679
probing the physiological uh

453
00:17:28,069 --> 00:17:25,360
underpinnings uh of the mind which as

454
00:17:30,950 --> 00:17:28,079
far as we know is the brain itself

455
00:17:33,510 --> 00:17:30,960
but it's it's amazing how little

456
00:17:35,590 --> 00:17:33,520
progress there has been

457
00:17:39,190 --> 00:17:35,600
uh in this field

458
00:17:41,350 --> 00:17:39,200
and i think people are perfectly

459
00:17:42,470 --> 00:17:41,360
right to

460
00:17:44,390 --> 00:17:42,480
question

461
00:17:46,310 --> 00:17:44,400
uh the the

462
00:17:48,710 --> 00:17:46,320
arrogance of some scientists who think

463
00:17:50,870 --> 00:17:48,720
that we're closing in on a solution or

464
00:17:52,230 --> 00:17:50,880
just to kind of wave their hands around

465
00:17:54,870 --> 00:17:52,240
and throw out

466
00:17:57,029 --> 00:17:54,880
uh terms like emergent phenomenon and

467
00:17:58,150 --> 00:17:57,039
that that sort of thing

468
00:18:00,630 --> 00:17:58,160
um

469
00:18:02,470 --> 00:18:00,640
but it is an exciting time i think one

470
00:18:04,230 --> 00:18:02,480
of the one of the things that excites me

471
00:18:07,110 --> 00:18:04,240
is the possibility of

472
00:18:09,830 --> 00:18:07,120
of uh applied neuroscience of

473
00:18:14,150 --> 00:18:09,840
of uh having devices

474
00:18:17,190 --> 00:18:14,160
that can um allow us to interact with

475
00:18:19,909 --> 00:18:17,200
machines in a much more direct way

476
00:18:21,750 --> 00:18:19,919
uh artificial cochleas where you know

477
00:18:24,710 --> 00:18:21,760
these are these are the little devices

478
00:18:26,710 --> 00:18:24,720
that allow deaf people to hear they were

479
00:18:28,710 --> 00:18:26,720
just on the horizon when i got into

480
00:18:30,230 --> 00:18:28,720
science journalism in the early 80s and

481
00:18:32,470 --> 00:18:30,240
there are a lot of neuroscientists who

482
00:18:34,070 --> 00:18:32,480
thought that it they would never happen

483
00:18:36,630 --> 00:18:34,080
that the the

484
00:18:38,870 --> 00:18:36,640
coding of neural information auditory

485
00:18:41,190 --> 00:18:38,880
information was too complex

486
00:18:43,190 --> 00:18:41,200
to be reproduced by a little electronic

487
00:18:44,549 --> 00:18:43,200
device they were wrong there are more

488
00:18:46,150 --> 00:18:44,559
than hundred thousand people have

489
00:18:48,950 --> 00:18:46,160
artificial cochlears around the world

490
00:18:51,750 --> 00:18:48,960
today maybe it's possible

491
00:18:55,669 --> 00:18:51,760
to have other neural prostheses possibly

492
00:18:56,870 --> 00:18:55,679
even brain ships that allow

493
00:19:00,549 --> 00:18:56,880
matrix

494
00:19:03,990 --> 00:19:00,559
style scenarios that's kind of the

495
00:19:05,909 --> 00:19:04,000
that's the hypey view of neuroscience

496
00:19:08,830 --> 00:19:05,919
and i understand why people have that

497
00:19:13,510 --> 00:19:08,840
view i get excited about it sometimes uh

498
00:19:15,350 --> 00:19:13,520
myself but the fact is that we're still

499
00:19:17,430 --> 00:19:15,360
just kind of

500
00:19:19,350 --> 00:19:17,440
scratching at the surface of the brain

501
00:19:21,029 --> 00:19:19,360
and and it's one of those weird areas of

502
00:19:22,830 --> 00:19:21,039
science that

503
00:19:26,789 --> 00:19:22,840
seems to get

504
00:19:29,750 --> 00:19:26,799
more mysterious and complicated

505
00:19:31,830 --> 00:19:29,760
uh the more research we do it's almost

506
00:19:34,470 --> 00:19:31,840
as though we're going backwards in a way

507
00:19:36,950 --> 00:19:34,480
in our understanding of ourselves well i

508
00:19:39,430 --> 00:19:36,960
would suggest to you that's because we

509
00:19:41,029 --> 00:19:39,440
keep pounding on this mind equals brain

510
00:19:43,190 --> 00:19:41,039
thing and you just did it there a couple

511
00:19:45,909 --> 00:19:43,200
times in equating the brain with the

512
00:19:48,310 --> 00:19:45,919
mind and i think that the best evidence

513
00:19:49,990 --> 00:19:48,320
we have is that that idea has been

514
00:19:52,070 --> 00:19:50,000
falsified you know

515
00:19:54,870 --> 00:19:52,080
you know the exciting advances

516
00:19:56,549 --> 00:19:54,880
technology engineering great bring it on

517
00:19:59,270 --> 00:19:56,559
you know and you want to embed an

518
00:20:01,029 --> 00:19:59,280
ipad in my uh head and all that stuff

519
00:20:02,630 --> 00:20:01,039
i'll be the first one in line to sign up

520
00:20:04,630 --> 00:20:02,640
not the first one let me take that back

521
00:20:06,390 --> 00:20:04,640
i won't be the first one but i don't

522
00:20:07,990 --> 00:20:06,400
have any problem with that

523
00:20:11,350 --> 00:20:08,000
what i have a problem with is the

524
00:20:14,070 --> 00:20:11,360
fundamental assumption the paradigm and

525
00:20:17,990 --> 00:20:14,080
where that paradigm takes us and that is

526
00:20:19,830 --> 00:20:18,000
that mind equals brain that you are this

527
00:20:21,909 --> 00:20:19,840
biological robot in a meaningless

528
00:20:24,630 --> 00:20:21,919
universe and we can't get away from that

529
00:20:27,350 --> 00:20:24,640
but the real problem that bugs me

530
00:20:30,710 --> 00:20:27,360
is that we have good evidence

531
00:20:33,029 --> 00:20:30,720
that that has been falsified and even if

532
00:20:35,190 --> 00:20:33,039
you look at the story arc like i laid

533
00:20:37,430 --> 00:20:35,200
out there hey 20 years ago no one was

534
00:20:39,430 --> 00:20:37,440
talking about uh consciousness being an

535
00:20:41,830 --> 00:20:39,440
emergent property and there wasn't some

536
00:20:44,630 --> 00:20:41,840
discovery that brought that on it was a

537
00:20:46,390 --> 00:20:44,640
default a fallback position because

538
00:20:49,029 --> 00:20:46,400
these guys who are peddling this

539
00:20:51,909 --> 00:20:49,039
consciousness is an illusion thing they

540
00:20:54,230 --> 00:20:51,919
just got beaten down by the data but no

541
00:20:56,789 --> 00:20:54,240
one ever came out and said oh we were

542
00:20:59,669 --> 00:20:56,799
wrong about that they've instead just

543
00:21:02,390 --> 00:20:59,679
tried to slip this next meme in here

544
00:21:05,350 --> 00:21:02,400
that it's an emergent property it's just

545
00:21:07,590 --> 00:21:05,360
it doesn't hold up and as i

546
00:21:10,070 --> 00:21:07,600
just said you know emergent property

547
00:21:12,950 --> 00:21:10,080
this is what they use to talk about

548
00:21:14,950 --> 00:21:12,960
tornadoes or sand dunes or snow drifts

549
00:21:17,750 --> 00:21:14,960
or any of the rest of that whenever we

550
00:21:18,549 --> 00:21:17,760
talk about an emergent property we talk

551
00:21:21,510 --> 00:21:18,559
about

552
00:21:24,070 --> 00:21:21,520
knowing how it's formed we know within a

553
00:21:26,149 --> 00:21:24,080
sand dune it's from sand and wind and

554
00:21:29,270 --> 00:21:26,159
moisture and certain weather conditions

555
00:21:31,190 --> 00:21:29,280
we can model it but we can't do any of

556
00:21:33,430 --> 00:21:31,200
that with consciousness like i said we

557
00:21:35,830 --> 00:21:33,440
can't say who's consciousness what is

558
00:21:38,070 --> 00:21:35,840
consciousness is your dog conscious is

559
00:21:40,470 --> 00:21:38,080
this plant out in front of my office

560
00:21:42,710 --> 00:21:40,480
conscious we can't say when it begins we

561
00:21:44,710 --> 00:21:42,720
can't say when it ends and yet we're

562
00:21:47,830 --> 00:21:44,720
still married

563
00:21:50,029 --> 00:21:47,840
to this mind equals brain thing and i

564
00:21:53,510 --> 00:21:50,039
just think it doesn't hold up

565
00:21:54,950 --> 00:21:53,520
experimentally or philosophically well i

566
00:21:58,390 --> 00:21:54,960
you know maybe we have to get more

567
00:22:01,350 --> 00:21:58,400
explicit about where you think the model

568
00:22:03,430 --> 00:22:01,360
uh breaks down i do think that there is

569
00:22:05,430 --> 00:22:03,440
tremendous confusion

570
00:22:07,430 --> 00:22:05,440
when it comes to how i mean we're

571
00:22:08,950 --> 00:22:07,440
talking about the mind body problem

572
00:22:11,270 --> 00:22:08,960
which is something that plato and

573
00:22:13,669 --> 00:22:11,280
socrates worried about uh you know it's

574
00:22:16,230 --> 00:22:13,679
it's it's if not the oldest problem

575
00:22:18,789 --> 00:22:16,240
certainly one of the oldest problems of

576
00:22:21,270 --> 00:22:18,799
philosophy or just of human thought uh

577
00:22:25,669 --> 00:22:21,280
sort of contemplating the oddness

578
00:22:28,470 --> 00:22:25,679
of uh reality as i said i think it's for

579
00:22:29,669 --> 00:22:28,480
me it's too early to abandon it just

580
00:22:32,549 --> 00:22:29,679
because i'm not sure what the

581
00:22:35,029 --> 00:22:32,559
alternative is uh you know it's it's

582
00:22:38,149 --> 00:22:35,039
bizarre to me that a major

583
00:22:40,710 --> 00:22:38,159
neuroscientist or christoph

584
00:22:42,230 --> 00:22:40,720
who used to be one of my go-to guys for

585
00:22:45,029 --> 00:22:42,240
neuroscience is now

586
00:22:47,270 --> 00:22:45,039
talking about pan-psychism that maybe

587
00:22:48,710 --> 00:22:47,280
consciousness is a kind of fundamental

588
00:22:51,190 --> 00:22:48,720
property of the universe like

589
00:22:53,110 --> 00:22:51,200
electromagnetism and gravity i mean that

590
00:22:56,789 --> 00:22:53,120
opens up a lot more doors and i talked

591
00:22:58,710 --> 00:22:56,799
to too and uh a few years ago and i

592
00:23:00,950 --> 00:22:58,720
think i tried to pull him into that

593
00:23:03,350 --> 00:23:00,960
because what i read in his writing was

594
00:23:05,110 --> 00:23:03,360
him moving exactly in that direction and

595
00:23:08,870 --> 00:23:05,120
he wanted to play it both ways in terms

596
00:23:11,110 --> 00:23:08,880
of this propping up this materialism

597
00:23:13,190 --> 00:23:11,120
on one hand and on the other hand kind

598
00:23:15,750 --> 00:23:13,200
of venturing into these other areas but

599
00:23:18,230 --> 00:23:15,760
in terms of again john if we just follow

600
00:23:20,270 --> 00:23:18,240
the data i think one i think the whole

601
00:23:22,630 --> 00:23:20,280
mindfulness thing self-directed

602
00:23:24,950 --> 00:23:22,640
neuroplasticity all the research that

603
00:23:27,830 --> 00:23:24,960
you looked into in terms of meditation

604
00:23:31,510 --> 00:23:27,840
for your book rational mysticism i think

605
00:23:33,110 --> 00:23:31,520
that research has been again uh largely

606
00:23:34,470 --> 00:23:33,120
i don't want to say misinterpreted

607
00:23:37,270 --> 00:23:34,480
because i think it's been interpreted

608
00:23:39,669 --> 00:23:37,280
very nicely and i had dan harris abc

609
00:23:42,549 --> 00:23:39,679
news superstar who wrote a best-selling

610
00:23:45,190 --> 00:23:42,559
book 10 happier all about meditation and

611
00:23:47,510 --> 00:23:45,200
all about that research hey that's great

612
00:23:49,830 --> 00:23:47,520
but like i told dan we've buried the

613
00:23:52,070 --> 00:23:49,840
lead when we talk about that research

614
00:23:55,430 --> 00:23:52,080
because what that research really tells

615
00:23:58,710 --> 00:23:55,440
us is that the materialistic mind equals

616
00:24:02,549 --> 00:23:58,720
brain model does not work because if

617
00:24:05,430 --> 00:24:02,559
mind equals brain then mind can't do

618
00:24:07,669 --> 00:24:05,440
anything it can't do any real work if we

619
00:24:10,470 --> 00:24:07,679
have a closed system but when we see

620
00:24:12,470 --> 00:24:10,480
meditators even when as you report in

621
00:24:13,830 --> 00:24:12,480
rational mysticism we see him doing

622
00:24:16,470 --> 00:24:13,840
different things and we see him doing

623
00:24:19,990 --> 00:24:16,480
contradictory things but we definitely

624
00:24:22,549 --> 00:24:20,000
see in material thought affecting the

625
00:24:24,789 --> 00:24:22,559
physical structure of the brain here let

626
00:24:26,549 --> 00:24:24,799
me that this you're you're touching on a

627
00:24:29,430 --> 00:24:26,559
really point let me see if i can frame

628
00:24:30,470 --> 00:24:29,440
it a little differently frame it the way

629
00:24:35,350 --> 00:24:30,480
that

630
00:24:37,830 --> 00:24:35,360
think about uh think about this

631
00:24:39,830 --> 00:24:37,840
to me one of the uh

632
00:24:42,470 --> 00:24:39,840
the issues that really obsesses me and

633
00:24:45,430 --> 00:24:42,480
if you if you've looked at my blog

634
00:24:48,070 --> 00:24:45,440
you probably noticed this is free will

635
00:24:49,830 --> 00:24:48,080
i think free will is maybe

636
00:24:52,630 --> 00:24:49,840
you know it's like the riddle within the

637
00:24:54,549 --> 00:24:52,640
mystery of consciousness and it it gets

638
00:24:55,590 --> 00:24:54,559
at this question that you're talking

639
00:24:57,110 --> 00:24:55,600
about

640
00:24:59,830 --> 00:24:57,120
how can

641
00:25:01,909 --> 00:24:59,840
you know so the mind comes from matter

642
00:25:04,789 --> 00:25:01,919
and then it creates this emergent thing

643
00:25:05,990 --> 00:25:04,799
the mind that somehow then

644
00:25:09,029 --> 00:25:06,000
exerts

645
00:25:11,350 --> 00:25:09,039
a downward influence

646
00:25:12,310 --> 00:25:11,360
on on the matter itself

647
00:25:20,630 --> 00:25:12,320
and

648
00:25:23,350 --> 00:25:20,640
there are others who are kind of saying

649
00:25:26,549 --> 00:25:23,360
something similar to this is that

650
00:25:27,669 --> 00:25:26,559
um we need a whole new

651
00:25:31,669 --> 00:25:27,679
kind of

652
00:25:35,350 --> 00:25:31,679
causality that we're stuck in physics

653
00:25:37,510 --> 00:25:35,360
causality the billiard ball causality if

654
00:25:39,669 --> 00:25:37,520
you've you've got a system with a bunch

655
00:25:42,149 --> 00:25:39,679
of physical objects in it you know the

656
00:25:44,630 --> 00:25:42,159
forces that are acting upon that system

657
00:25:47,990 --> 00:25:44,640
you can predict its course infinitely

658
00:25:50,070 --> 00:25:48,000
far into the future that just obviously

659
00:25:53,029 --> 00:25:50,080
does not explain the world that we

660
00:25:54,870 --> 00:25:53,039
humans live in where we can

661
00:25:57,750 --> 00:25:54,880
look into the future right now i'm

662
00:25:58,789 --> 00:25:57,760
talking to you i can think of a couple

663
00:26:02,070 --> 00:25:58,799
of different

664
00:26:04,870 --> 00:26:02,080
things to say that will create whole new

665
00:26:06,950 --> 00:26:04,880
trajectories for this conversation i can

666
00:26:08,630 --> 00:26:06,960
do the same thing with my life i can

667
00:26:11,510 --> 00:26:08,640
radically change

668
00:26:15,110 --> 00:26:11,520
the course of my life and maybe change

669
00:26:17,990 --> 00:26:15,120
the course of other people's lives by

670
00:26:20,789 --> 00:26:18,000
taking in new information that makes me

671
00:26:22,950 --> 00:26:20,799
see the future differently and act in a

672
00:26:25,430 --> 00:26:22,960
different way well john hold on you've

673
00:26:28,390 --> 00:26:25,440
just violated your idea that you're a

674
00:26:31,750 --> 00:26:28,400
materialist you've also just violated

675
00:26:34,070 --> 00:26:31,760
the neo-darwinist idea of evolution you

676
00:26:36,950 --> 00:26:34,080
have you've added a new element to it

677
00:26:39,430 --> 00:26:36,960
and that is that thought immaterial

678
00:26:41,269 --> 00:26:39,440
thought can direct where we go i think

679
00:26:43,029 --> 00:26:41,279
that's well established i'm totally with

680
00:26:45,190 --> 00:26:43,039
you but i don't understand how you still

681
00:26:49,350 --> 00:26:45,200
call yourself a materialist i it's uh

682
00:26:52,230 --> 00:26:49,360
well my materialism is

683
00:26:53,669 --> 00:26:52,240
pretty expansive i mean i meet you know

684
00:26:56,390 --> 00:26:53,679
so for example

685
00:26:57,990 --> 00:26:56,400
uh there are some hardcore materialists

686
00:26:59,830 --> 00:26:58,000
out there who

687
00:27:02,310 --> 00:26:59,840
deny there are a lot of people who deny

688
00:27:05,269 --> 00:27:02,320
the existence of free will right now uh

689
00:27:05,830 --> 00:27:05,279
stephen hawking has

690
00:27:07,590 --> 00:27:05,840
but jerry coyne

691
00:27:09,510 --> 00:27:07,600
guys are dancing in the dark they're

692
00:27:11,269 --> 00:27:09,520
complete morons i mean your point jerry

693
00:27:13,029 --> 00:27:11,279
coin is a complete mourn as far as

694
00:27:16,310 --> 00:27:13,039
hawking i mean anyone who says that

695
00:27:18,149 --> 00:27:16,320
philosophy is dead is obviously kind of

696
00:27:19,510 --> 00:27:18,159
painted themselves into a

697
00:27:21,590 --> 00:27:19,520
a corner that they're not going to be

698
00:27:24,070 --> 00:27:21,600
able to think their way out of right

699
00:27:25,590 --> 00:27:24,080
well those guys are also you know some

700
00:27:27,590 --> 00:27:25,600
people are just provocateurs because

701
00:27:30,470 --> 00:27:27,600
they want to they they want to they want

702
00:27:31,990 --> 00:27:30,480
to piss readers off and um you know

703
00:27:34,390 --> 00:27:32,000
maybe it generates more traffic i

704
00:27:35,430 --> 00:27:34,400
understand that but but yeah some

705
00:27:37,909 --> 00:27:35,440
sometimes

706
00:27:40,070 --> 00:27:37,919
some of those guys say things that don't

707
00:27:41,510 --> 00:27:40,080
make any sense but there are

708
00:27:43,350 --> 00:27:41,520
i i know because i've gotten in

709
00:27:44,630 --> 00:27:43,360
arguments with with some of them there

710
00:27:47,029 --> 00:27:44,640
are people out there who have very

711
00:27:48,789 --> 00:27:47,039
serious objections to free will francis

712
00:27:50,950 --> 00:27:48,799
crick who i interviewed for my book the

713
00:27:53,510 --> 00:27:50,960
end of science is one of the greatest

714
00:27:55,350 --> 00:27:53,520
minds i've ever encountered and he did

715
00:27:57,909 --> 00:27:55,360
not believe or he had serious doubts

716
00:28:00,470 --> 00:27:57,919
about free will as i said i just think

717
00:28:03,750 --> 00:28:00,480
our concept of materialism

718
00:28:05,029 --> 00:28:03,760
and material causality needs to be

719
00:28:06,389 --> 00:28:05,039
enormously

720
00:28:09,190 --> 00:28:06,399
expanded

721
00:28:11,110 --> 00:28:09,200
and by the way uh you know i've maybe

722
00:28:12,870 --> 00:28:11,120
this comes from my taking psychedelics

723
00:28:14,710 --> 00:28:12,880
i'm an old acid head i started tripping

724
00:28:17,830 --> 00:28:14,720
when i was just a kid when i was 15

725
00:28:19,350 --> 00:28:17,840
years old and i've taken psychedelics

726
00:28:21,909 --> 00:28:19,360
quite a few times i've written about

727
00:28:23,269 --> 00:28:21,919
this in my books and it has given me a

728
00:28:25,909 --> 00:28:23,279
picture

729
00:28:28,630 --> 00:28:25,919
of reality whatever the hell ad is

730
00:28:30,789 --> 00:28:28,640
and of the mind body problem

731
00:28:31,750 --> 00:28:30,799
and these issues that we we are talking

732
00:28:34,549 --> 00:28:31,760
about

733
00:28:36,310 --> 00:28:34,559
that makes me

734
00:28:39,029 --> 00:28:36,320
very suspicious

735
00:28:41,990 --> 00:28:39,039
of any conventional

736
00:28:45,669 --> 00:28:42,000
explanation so i'm a materialist with a

737
00:28:48,149 --> 00:28:45,679
big asterisk next to it because i think

738
00:28:50,710 --> 00:28:48,159
that materialism needs to be

739
00:28:54,149 --> 00:28:50,720
totally revamped

740
00:28:56,630 --> 00:28:54,159
and as i said a whole new kind of a

741
00:28:58,310 --> 00:28:56,640
physics of psychology

742
00:29:00,789 --> 00:28:58,320
created which we don't even have an

743
00:29:02,789 --> 00:29:00,799
inkling of at this point

744
00:29:05,990 --> 00:29:02,799
uh that gives us

745
00:29:07,750 --> 00:29:06,000
a more sophisticated sense of how the

746
00:29:09,430 --> 00:29:07,760
world works and particularly how our

747
00:29:12,230 --> 00:29:09,440
human world works

748
00:29:14,149 --> 00:29:12,240
and how it is that we are physical

749
00:29:16,310 --> 00:29:14,159
creatures and yet

750
00:29:17,510 --> 00:29:16,320
we can make decisions we can make

751
00:29:19,669 --> 00:29:17,520
choices

752
00:29:22,070 --> 00:29:19,679
that alter the course that are at a

753
00:29:23,909 --> 00:29:22,080
psychological level because of a book

754
00:29:25,590 --> 00:29:23,919
we've read or a conversation we've had

755
00:29:28,950 --> 00:29:25,600
or something we've seen

756
00:29:31,029 --> 00:29:28,960
that can alter our physical course

757
00:29:33,430 --> 00:29:31,039
through the universe i'm totally with

758
00:29:35,909 --> 00:29:33,440
you john although i think that really

759
00:29:39,110 --> 00:29:35,919
points to the larger problem with

760
00:29:41,029 --> 00:29:39,120
science that you touch on very nicely in

761
00:29:43,990 --> 00:29:41,039
your book but also in your blog and in

762
00:29:46,470 --> 00:29:44,000
your many writings and that is i i think

763
00:29:49,909 --> 00:29:46,480
science has become the emperor with no

764
00:29:51,350 --> 00:29:49,919
clothes on so when science says there is

765
00:29:53,750 --> 00:29:51,360
no free will

766
00:29:56,470 --> 00:29:53,760
or science says you are a biological

767
00:29:58,230 --> 00:29:56,480
robot like dawkins says or

768
00:30:00,789 --> 00:29:58,240
that we live in you're a biological

769
00:30:03,029 --> 00:30:00,799
robot a meaningless universe like uh

770
00:30:04,470 --> 00:30:03,039
lawrence krauss says who i just recently

771
00:30:06,310 --> 00:30:04,480
interviewed

772
00:30:09,590 --> 00:30:06,320
the physicist

773
00:30:12,070 --> 00:30:09,600
i think it loses credibility and people

774
00:30:14,070 --> 00:30:12,080
just go on it's like you're a lapsed

775
00:30:15,590 --> 00:30:14,080
catholic i have catholic friends and

776
00:30:17,830 --> 00:30:15,600
they don't really believe any of that

777
00:30:19,990 --> 00:30:17,840
stuff they just go to church go through

778
00:30:21,190 --> 00:30:20,000
the ritual and all the rest of that and

779
00:30:23,669 --> 00:30:21,200
go out and have a beer with their

780
00:30:25,510 --> 00:30:23,679
buddies after and watch the game i i get

781
00:30:27,510 --> 00:30:25,520
that that's a practical way of doing it

782
00:30:30,230 --> 00:30:27,520
i think that's what science has become

783
00:30:31,510 --> 00:30:30,240
no one takes that seriously uh i have no

784
00:30:33,990 --> 00:30:31,520
free will

785
00:30:37,750 --> 00:30:34,000
you're you're an idiot if you think that

786
00:30:40,070 --> 00:30:37,760
um i i'm a biological robot living in a

787
00:30:42,470 --> 00:30:40,080
meaningless world and i i don't have the

788
00:30:44,549 --> 00:30:42,480
love that i think i have for my family

789
00:30:47,830 --> 00:30:44,559
for my children for my wife come on

790
00:30:51,269 --> 00:30:47,840
that's an absurd idea and yet we're

791
00:30:53,029 --> 00:30:51,279
asked to just pile that absurdity on all

792
00:30:55,110 --> 00:30:53,039
the other absurdities you know you just

793
00:30:57,990 --> 00:30:55,120
wrote a book the end of war it's another

794
00:30:59,590 --> 00:30:58,000
absurdity politics is an absurdity and

795
00:31:01,669 --> 00:30:59,600
science has just become another

796
00:31:03,750 --> 00:31:01,679
absurdity that we just kind of shuffle

797
00:31:05,830 --> 00:31:03,760
along and go well i'm sure they're doing

798
00:31:07,669 --> 00:31:05,840
something over there but they really are

799
00:31:09,029 --> 00:31:07,679
in the dark

800
00:31:10,149 --> 00:31:09,039
well

801
00:31:23,590 --> 00:31:10,159
i

802
00:31:26,389 --> 00:31:23,600
our most powerful

803
00:31:29,590 --> 00:31:26,399
source of knowing ourselves

804
00:31:32,389 --> 00:31:29,600
and uh and the universe although i you

805
00:31:33,669 --> 00:31:32,399
know i read a lot of literature

806
00:31:35,909 --> 00:31:33,679
and

807
00:31:37,350 --> 00:31:35,919
watch a lot of movies so i think the

808
00:31:41,029 --> 00:31:37,360
arts

809
00:31:43,430 --> 00:31:41,039
are absolutely necessary to contemplate

810
00:31:45,269 --> 00:31:43,440
our scientific way of knowing the world

811
00:31:47,269 --> 00:31:45,279
but i do think that

812
00:31:49,350 --> 00:31:47,279
things are wide open

813
00:31:51,909 --> 00:31:49,360
right now and it's a weird time there's

814
00:31:54,789 --> 00:31:51,919
some scientists who were kind of

815
00:31:58,149 --> 00:31:54,799
digging trenches and becoming

816
00:31:59,350 --> 00:31:58,159
uh very arrogant and

817
00:32:02,389 --> 00:31:59,360
rigid

818
00:32:05,190 --> 00:32:02,399
and doubting and hostile toward other

819
00:32:08,549 --> 00:32:05,200
ways of knowing including even the arts

820
00:32:12,070 --> 00:32:08,559
and as you say philosophy and certainly

821
00:32:13,750 --> 00:32:12,080
religion if we want to get more explicit

822
00:32:14,789 --> 00:32:13,760
you know maybe we would have to talk

823
00:32:17,269 --> 00:32:14,799
about

824
00:32:20,149 --> 00:32:17,279
um the possibility of god and the

825
00:32:22,549 --> 00:32:20,159
possibility of the transcendent and the

826
00:32:25,750 --> 00:32:22,559
supernatural the possibility

827
00:32:26,789 --> 00:32:25,760
of uh esp i think maybe where you and i

828
00:32:28,870 --> 00:32:26,799
differ

829
00:32:32,310 --> 00:32:28,880
is that um

830
00:32:36,470 --> 00:32:32,320
i am just as i am extremely skeptical

831
00:32:38,470 --> 00:32:36,480
of uh string theory and uh the all the

832
00:32:40,310 --> 00:32:38,480
theories of consciousness and the origin

833
00:32:42,389 --> 00:32:40,320
of life that are that are out there

834
00:32:45,350 --> 00:32:42,399
right now i am also

835
00:32:46,549 --> 00:32:45,360
an esp skeptic even though some of my

836
00:32:48,710 --> 00:32:46,559
best friends

837
00:32:50,710 --> 00:32:48,720
um are believers and believe in ghosts

838
00:32:53,509 --> 00:32:50,720
and reincarnation and so forth and i

839
00:32:56,630 --> 00:32:53,519
certainly have a lot of people i respect

840
00:32:58,950 --> 00:32:56,640
uh believe in a god who loves us and has

841
00:33:00,870 --> 00:32:58,960
has some idea of where we're going i

842
00:33:02,630 --> 00:33:00,880
can't believe in those things i'm too

843
00:33:05,029 --> 00:33:02,640
much of a doubter

844
00:33:05,830 --> 00:33:05,039
uh and i you know they i haven't seen

845
00:33:09,110 --> 00:33:05,840
any

846
00:33:11,509 --> 00:33:09,120
um evidence for esp that makes me uh

847
00:33:13,750 --> 00:33:11,519
a believer there's no concept of a

848
00:33:15,110 --> 00:33:13,760
loving god who cares for humanity that

849
00:33:16,070 --> 00:33:15,120
is coherent

850
00:33:19,190 --> 00:33:16,080
to me

851
00:33:21,190 --> 00:33:19,200
but i i really try to be open-minded

852
00:33:23,509 --> 00:33:21,200
because i realize how

853
00:33:25,750 --> 00:33:23,519
completely inadequate

854
00:33:28,389 --> 00:33:25,760
scientific knowledges for addressing

855
00:33:31,350 --> 00:33:28,399
some of those ultimate questions

856
00:33:33,110 --> 00:33:31,360
i i get that and i do get that in your

857
00:33:35,990 --> 00:33:33,120
writing and in that that openness i

858
00:33:38,149 --> 00:33:36,000
think is extremely appealing

859
00:33:40,310 --> 00:33:38,159
the way my approach is always to kind of

860
00:33:42,549 --> 00:33:40,320
return to science because i'm a lover of

861
00:33:44,549 --> 00:33:42,559
science too and i like sorting through

862
00:33:46,630 --> 00:33:44,559
the data and getting down to bedrock and

863
00:33:48,389 --> 00:33:46,640
then i always think people can believe

864
00:33:51,430 --> 00:33:48,399
whatever they want at people who listen

865
00:33:52,350 --> 00:33:51,440
to my show and for myself i see it as my

866
00:33:56,710 --> 00:33:52,360
personal

867
00:33:59,029 --> 00:33:56,720
spirituality isn't really relevant my

868
00:34:01,669 --> 00:33:59,039
my point is just to say where does the

869
00:34:04,950 --> 00:34:01,679
data take us and i think the data

870
00:34:06,710 --> 00:34:04,960
falsifies some of these ideas that lead

871
00:34:08,790 --> 00:34:06,720
us in the wrong direction and of the

872
00:34:11,030 --> 00:34:08,800
latter leaning against the wrong wall if

873
00:34:13,909 --> 00:34:11,040
you will and a perfect example is near

874
00:34:15,430 --> 00:34:13,919
death experience science the research

875
00:34:17,589 --> 00:34:15,440
and you've covered some of this and i

876
00:34:19,349 --> 00:34:17,599
think you you i read an article that you

877
00:34:21,669 --> 00:34:19,359
wrote about evan alexander who's been on

878
00:34:25,109 --> 00:34:21,679
this show a couple times i think that

879
00:34:26,790 --> 00:34:25,119
that research is largely misunderstood

880
00:34:29,109 --> 00:34:26,800
not by people in the near-death

881
00:34:31,510 --> 00:34:29,119
experience community research community

882
00:34:32,869 --> 00:34:31,520
and i've interviewed so many of them

883
00:34:35,430 --> 00:34:32,879
extremely and you know when you

884
00:34:37,589 --> 00:34:35,440
interview those people and you have so

885
00:34:39,430 --> 00:34:37,599
much more experience than i do but one

886
00:34:42,149 --> 00:34:39,440
there's the misconception initially that

887
00:34:44,389 --> 00:34:42,159
these people are somehow crusaders for a

888
00:34:47,430 --> 00:34:44,399
cause and they're not

889
00:34:48,869 --> 00:34:47,440
they're just medical people like pin von

890
00:34:51,270 --> 00:34:48,879
lammel in the netherlands who was a

891
00:34:53,829 --> 00:34:51,280
cardiologist and you know is bringing

892
00:34:55,909 --> 00:34:53,839
these people back from cardiac arrest

893
00:34:59,270 --> 00:34:55,919
and they're saying doc you won't believe

894
00:35:01,190 --> 00:34:59,280
what i saw or jeff long who's an

895
00:35:04,230 --> 00:35:01,200
oncologist uh

896
00:35:07,190 --> 00:35:04,240
in in louisiana in the united states who

897
00:35:09,910 --> 00:35:07,200
same thing compiled the largest database

898
00:35:13,190 --> 00:35:09,920
of medically reviewed near-death

899
00:35:16,310 --> 00:35:13,200
experience cases when you look at that

900
00:35:17,829 --> 00:35:16,320
science the evidence is absolutely

901
00:35:21,510 --> 00:35:17,839
overwhelming

902
00:35:25,030 --> 00:35:21,520
that consciousness is existing in at

903
00:35:26,790 --> 00:35:25,040
least a severely compromised brain i'll

904
00:35:28,630 --> 00:35:26,800
get away from the death thing because

905
00:35:30,630 --> 00:35:28,640
that's a whole other topic it's totally

906
00:35:32,870 --> 00:35:30,640
misunderstood again these people are

907
00:35:35,190 --> 00:35:32,880
clinically dead by every means and

908
00:35:37,349 --> 00:35:35,200
measure we have for them but even if we

909
00:35:40,069 --> 00:35:37,359
just say these people's brains are

910
00:35:42,630 --> 00:35:40,079
severely compromised beyond the point

911
00:35:44,230 --> 00:35:42,640
that we could recognize it being

912
00:35:46,390 --> 00:35:44,240
possible for them to have a conscious

913
00:35:48,230 --> 00:35:46,400
experience and yet they have these

914
00:35:51,750 --> 00:35:48,240
conscious experiences

915
00:35:52,710 --> 00:35:51,760
it's game over yet we've found a way to

916
00:35:55,510 --> 00:35:52,720
kind of

917
00:35:58,710 --> 00:35:55,520
reposition that research ignore it

918
00:36:00,150 --> 00:35:58,720
bypass it talk about rats that uh you

919
00:36:01,990 --> 00:36:00,160
know the university of michigan thing

920
00:36:03,589 --> 00:36:02,000
rats and the brain bursts and all stuff

921
00:36:05,430 --> 00:36:03,599
like that i've had that discussion so

922
00:36:07,349 --> 00:36:05,440
many times it's such a ridiculous

923
00:36:09,109 --> 00:36:07,359
argument i talked to one nde researcher

924
00:36:11,589 --> 00:36:09,119
and he privately told me that's the

925
00:36:13,430 --> 00:36:11,599
stupidest explanation yet for near-death

926
00:36:15,270 --> 00:36:13,440
experience science but i come back to

927
00:36:17,750 --> 00:36:15,280
that science and i say you know that's

928
00:36:19,109 --> 00:36:17,760
bedrock that's bedrock there

929
00:36:22,550 --> 00:36:19,119
either there's something wrong with that

930
00:36:24,310 --> 00:36:22,560
science or it propels us into having a

931
00:36:25,910 --> 00:36:24,320
whole different perspective on these

932
00:36:26,870 --> 00:36:25,920
spiritual questions that you just

933
00:36:28,870 --> 00:36:26,880
mentioned

934
00:36:31,190 --> 00:36:28,880
here here's uh

935
00:36:33,109 --> 00:36:31,200
where i think we

936
00:36:36,069 --> 00:36:33,119
converge um

937
00:36:39,349 --> 00:36:36,079
i one of my favorite all-time

938
00:36:41,829 --> 00:36:39,359
thinkers and seekers is william james

939
00:36:43,190 --> 00:36:41,839
because william james combined he was a

940
00:36:45,589 --> 00:36:43,200
seeker

941
00:36:47,910 --> 00:36:45,599
and and yet he was

942
00:36:49,910 --> 00:36:47,920
a skeptic and he was a seeker out of

943
00:36:51,510 --> 00:36:49,920
almost at a personal necessity he was a

944
00:36:54,069 --> 00:36:51,520
very tormented

945
00:36:55,430 --> 00:36:54,079
person prone to severe depression and

946
00:36:57,829 --> 00:36:55,440
anxiety

947
00:36:59,430 --> 00:36:57,839
and he also was enormously curious and

948
00:37:02,150 --> 00:36:59,440
fascinated by

949
00:37:04,230 --> 00:37:02,160
these wild transcendent experiences that

950
00:37:06,230 --> 00:37:04,240
people have where they feel that they

951
00:37:07,910 --> 00:37:06,240
are in touch with ultimate reality this

952
00:37:09,510 --> 00:37:07,920
is what he wrote about in the varieties

953
00:37:12,230 --> 00:37:09,520
of religious

954
00:37:14,870 --> 00:37:12,240
uh experience which is one of my

955
00:37:17,270 --> 00:37:14,880
favorite books and i think still

956
00:37:20,230 --> 00:37:17,280
maybe the best book

957
00:37:23,750 --> 00:37:20,240
on extraordinary experiences like

958
00:37:27,190 --> 00:37:23,760
near-death experiences uh i

959
00:37:29,670 --> 00:37:27,200
i jumped into that realm with my book uh

960
00:37:31,670 --> 00:37:29,680
rational mysticism which covered

961
00:37:33,349 --> 00:37:31,680
near-death experiences a little bit but

962
00:37:34,470 --> 00:37:33,359
mainly covered

963
00:37:38,470 --> 00:37:34,480
really

964
00:37:40,630 --> 00:37:38,480
deep mystical experiences produced in

965
00:37:42,790 --> 00:37:40,640
various ways sometimes spontaneously or

966
00:37:44,470 --> 00:37:42,800
through meditation but i really got into

967
00:37:47,910 --> 00:37:44,480
the psychedelic stuff

968
00:37:50,069 --> 00:37:47,920
because that's what i was familiar with

969
00:37:52,550 --> 00:37:50,079
myself i've had many of these

970
00:37:55,190 --> 00:37:52,560
experiences and and what i come away

971
00:37:58,710 --> 00:37:55,200
with is something that i think this this

972
00:37:59,990 --> 00:37:58,720
is how james concluded that what we can

973
00:38:01,510 --> 00:38:00,000
say

974
00:38:04,390 --> 00:38:01,520
is that

975
00:38:05,750 --> 00:38:04,400
there are things going on in our minds

976
00:38:08,950 --> 00:38:05,760
and brains

977
00:38:12,310 --> 00:38:08,960
that are far beyond our capacity for

978
00:38:14,790 --> 00:38:12,320
understanding and really challenge

979
00:38:15,829 --> 00:38:14,800
some basic assumptions

980
00:38:19,430 --> 00:38:15,839
about

981
00:38:23,109 --> 00:38:19,440
how reality works uh i described this

982
00:38:25,990 --> 00:38:23,119
experience that i had back in 1982 in

983
00:38:28,710 --> 00:38:26,000
rational mysticism it's it's also i also

984
00:38:31,270 --> 00:38:28,720
mentioned it in a in a briefer more

985
00:38:33,670 --> 00:38:31,280
mysterious way at the end of my book the

986
00:38:35,910 --> 00:38:33,680
end of science i had a i had a really

987
00:38:37,829 --> 00:38:35,920
massive drug trip that completely

988
00:38:38,870 --> 00:38:37,839
knocked me out and set me into a dream

989
00:38:41,990 --> 00:38:38,880
world

990
00:38:43,109 --> 00:38:42,000
uh for almost 24 hours

991
00:38:45,430 --> 00:38:43,119
and

992
00:38:48,470 --> 00:38:45,440
i've spent the rest of my life

993
00:38:50,150 --> 00:38:48,480
trying to understand that um experience

994
00:38:52,390 --> 00:38:50,160
and i i still

995
00:38:54,950 --> 00:38:52,400
haven't but if i you know

996
00:38:57,510 --> 00:38:54,960
if the hard-nosed skeptic

997
00:38:58,790 --> 00:38:57,520
uh scientific materialist if you if you

998
00:39:00,390 --> 00:38:58,800
will uh

999
00:39:02,630 --> 00:39:00,400
is trying to

1000
00:39:05,109 --> 00:39:02,640
come to grips with this what i would say

1001
00:39:07,109 --> 00:39:05,119
is that there's this

1002
00:39:09,990 --> 00:39:07,119
fantastic kind of

1003
00:39:12,470 --> 00:39:10,000
hyper imagination in our brains

1004
00:39:16,630 --> 00:39:12,480
that creates narratives

1005
00:39:19,030 --> 00:39:16,640
and stories and visionary worlds

1006
00:39:20,950 --> 00:39:19,040
uh out of

1007
00:39:23,750 --> 00:39:20,960
whatever stimuli

1008
00:39:26,069 --> 00:39:23,760
uh that this is what i assume happened

1009
00:39:27,510 --> 00:39:26,079
to even alexander it's what happened to

1010
00:39:28,470 --> 00:39:27,520
me when i was

1011
00:39:29,750 --> 00:39:28,480
tripping

1012
00:39:30,950 --> 00:39:29,760
and they

1013
00:39:33,190 --> 00:39:30,960
they

1014
00:39:34,310 --> 00:39:33,200
suggest that there are capacities that

1015
00:39:39,030 --> 00:39:34,320
we have

1016
00:39:41,109 --> 00:39:39,040
plum yet

1017
00:39:43,430 --> 00:39:41,119
and that might

1018
00:39:45,670 --> 00:39:43,440
if we explore them further

1019
00:39:48,630 --> 00:39:45,680
feed to whole new ways of knowing the

1020
00:39:51,190 --> 00:39:48,640
world and of living in the world and of

1021
00:39:52,950 --> 00:39:51,200
dealing with these ultimate questions

1022
00:39:54,950 --> 00:39:52,960
that we've answered with

1023
00:39:57,750 --> 00:39:54,960
religious explanations

1024
00:40:01,030 --> 00:39:57,760
in the past and um

1025
00:40:02,310 --> 00:40:01,040
you know evan alexander i wrote uh

1026
00:40:05,430 --> 00:40:02,320
skeptically

1027
00:40:07,670 --> 00:40:05,440
about him uh mainly because he was

1028
00:40:11,030 --> 00:40:07,680
giving a kind of he was suggesting that

1029
00:40:12,630 --> 00:40:11,040
the these things he saw were real that

1030
00:40:15,510 --> 00:40:12,640
they demonstrated the existence of

1031
00:40:16,630 --> 00:40:15,520
heaven at least that's what i assume

1032
00:40:18,870 --> 00:40:16,640
and

1033
00:40:21,589 --> 00:40:18,880
i can't go there but

1034
00:40:23,190 --> 00:40:21,599
but i do think that the experiences are

1035
00:40:26,150 --> 00:40:23,200
very important

1036
00:40:28,710 --> 00:40:26,160
and need to be paid attention to

1037
00:40:30,390 --> 00:40:28,720
and could lead in some really exciting

1038
00:40:32,470 --> 00:40:30,400
directions

1039
00:40:33,829 --> 00:40:32,480
yeah boy

1040
00:40:36,310 --> 00:40:33,839
you know i mean the problem with that i

1041
00:40:38,550 --> 00:40:36,320
always hear that from nde skeptics it's

1042
00:40:40,310 --> 00:40:38,560
like well no i don't believe it really

1043
00:40:42,390 --> 00:40:40,320
means anything but it's important to a

1044
00:40:43,670 --> 00:40:42,400
lot of other people so if it's an

1045
00:40:46,069 --> 00:40:43,680
important to their life then it's

1046
00:40:48,870 --> 00:40:46,079
important let's get down to

1047
00:40:51,109 --> 00:40:48,880
bedrock uh like the big thing about evan

1048
00:40:52,790 --> 00:40:51,119
alexander that always kind of aggravates

1049
00:40:54,230 --> 00:40:52,800
me and we've done a number of shows on

1050
00:40:56,470 --> 00:40:54,240
it is

1051
00:40:58,230 --> 00:40:56,480
evan alexander's experience is

1052
00:41:00,470 --> 00:40:58,240
irrelevant

1053
00:41:03,430 --> 00:41:00,480
other than the fact that it fits into

1054
00:41:06,870 --> 00:41:03,440
this larger body of near-death

1055
00:41:09,910 --> 00:41:06,880
experience science for which we have a

1056
00:41:11,670 --> 00:41:09,920
lot of solid evidence you know i just

1057
00:41:14,069 --> 00:41:11,680
interviewed a guy a philosopher from

1058
00:41:15,990 --> 00:41:14,079
british columbia who is well known as

1059
00:41:18,550 --> 00:41:16,000
written a book and has a whole book

1060
00:41:20,069 --> 00:41:18,560
dedicated to the near-death experience

1061
00:41:22,470 --> 00:41:20,079
science and why he doesn't think it

1062
00:41:24,470 --> 00:41:22,480
holds up to modern neuroscience and all

1063
00:41:26,309 --> 00:41:24,480
those explanations we had a nice

1064
00:41:29,030 --> 00:41:26,319
conversation but they're also

1065
00:41:32,069 --> 00:41:29,040
hopelessly outdated i mean susan

1066
00:41:33,589 --> 00:41:32,079
blackmore is referenced and gm worley is

1067
00:41:35,910 --> 00:41:33,599
referenced and all these people that

1068
00:41:38,390 --> 00:41:35,920
have been completely i interviewed susan

1069
00:41:40,390 --> 00:41:38,400
blackmore she said flatly you know i

1070
00:41:41,990 --> 00:41:40,400
haven't looked at the research in 15

1071
00:41:43,349 --> 00:41:42,000
years i shouldn't be considered an

1072
00:41:46,069 --> 00:41:43,359
authority and i said well thanks for

1073
00:41:49,030 --> 00:41:46,079
being honest goodbye

1074
00:41:51,109 --> 00:41:49,040
his points have anesthesiologists

1075
00:41:53,030 --> 00:41:51,119
thoroughly disputed

1076
00:41:55,910 --> 00:41:53,040
the best research people at university

1077
00:41:59,109 --> 00:41:55,920
of virginia bruce grayson jan holden at

1078
00:42:00,550 --> 00:41:59,119
north texas jeff long is one of my

1079
00:42:04,309 --> 00:42:00,560
favorite researchers along with penn

1080
00:42:06,630 --> 00:42:04,319
vallamall completely swamps all that so

1081
00:42:09,349 --> 00:42:06,640
what evan alexander where his stuff is

1082
00:42:11,750 --> 00:42:09,359
really important is one is he's expanded

1083
00:42:13,670 --> 00:42:11,760
it beyond his experience to talk about

1084
00:42:16,069 --> 00:42:13,680
all spiritually transformative

1085
00:42:19,109 --> 00:42:16,079
experiences which would include the kind

1086
00:42:21,030 --> 00:42:19,119
of psychedelic experiences that you talk

1087
00:42:23,270 --> 00:42:21,040
bravely about i think you're very brave

1088
00:42:25,670 --> 00:42:23,280
to talk about that but it's really a

1089
00:42:27,349 --> 00:42:25,680
game changer for that and we have to

1090
00:42:28,470 --> 00:42:27,359
recognize it as that and that's the

1091
00:42:32,230 --> 00:42:28,480
bedrock

1092
00:42:34,390 --> 00:42:32,240
eben alexander didn't have a functioning

1093
00:42:37,510 --> 00:42:34,400
brain and if you want to argue about

1094
00:42:39,430 --> 00:42:37,520
that you can because he had uh what e

1095
00:42:41,349 --> 00:42:39,440
coli spinal meningitis and you can say

1096
00:42:43,670 --> 00:42:41,359
well we don't really know the state of

1097
00:42:45,829 --> 00:42:43,680
his brain but you know what that's why

1098
00:42:47,910 --> 00:42:45,839
the near-death experience research was

1099
00:42:49,910 --> 00:42:47,920
moved to the cardiac arrest board

1100
00:42:52,309 --> 00:42:49,920
because we sure as do know what's

1101
00:42:55,190 --> 00:42:52,319
going on when someone has a heart attack

1102
00:42:58,309 --> 00:42:55,200
we have about 50 years or at least 25

1103
00:43:00,470 --> 00:42:58,319
good years of eeg and other data of what

1104
00:43:02,790 --> 00:43:00,480
happens to animals and human beings when

1105
00:43:06,309 --> 00:43:02,800
their heart stops and their brain stops

1106
00:43:08,710 --> 00:43:06,319
within 15 seconds so these people have

1107
00:43:11,829 --> 00:43:08,720
no brain and yet they're having a

1108
00:43:13,829 --> 00:43:11,839
conscious experience so it's game over

1109
00:43:16,309 --> 00:43:13,839
for all that for that model and we can

1110
00:43:17,829 --> 00:43:16,319
talk nicely about it and how it could

1111
00:43:19,270 --> 00:43:17,839
lead us to a new

1112
00:43:21,270 --> 00:43:19,280
thing and all the rest that well let's

1113
00:43:23,349 --> 00:43:21,280
get busy with getting on to that new

1114
00:43:24,829 --> 00:43:23,359
paradigm because the old paradigm has

1115
00:43:27,829 --> 00:43:24,839
been

1116
00:43:29,670 --> 00:43:27,839
falsified okay

1117
00:43:31,750 --> 00:43:29,680
all right well uh you've got me at a

1118
00:43:34,710 --> 00:43:31,760
disadvantage because i'm not reading i'm

1119
00:43:36,470 --> 00:43:34,720
not uh familiar with uh the literature

1120
00:43:39,670 --> 00:43:36,480
that you're uh

1121
00:43:41,990 --> 00:43:39,680
you're describing i i do think that

1122
00:43:44,550 --> 00:43:42,000
there are and i see this in myself and

1123
00:43:45,589 --> 00:43:44,560
i've seen it uh in others

1124
00:43:48,309 --> 00:43:45,599
um

1125
00:43:50,069 --> 00:43:48,319
and it's something that that pops out of

1126
00:43:53,750 --> 00:43:50,079
a lot of uh

1127
00:43:56,630 --> 00:43:53,760
modern psychology research that humans

1128
00:43:58,390 --> 00:43:56,640
have enormous capacities for

1129
00:44:01,589 --> 00:43:58,400
self-deception

1130
00:44:05,910 --> 00:44:01,599
and uh for believing in things that

1131
00:44:07,510 --> 00:44:05,920
ain't so and and so i probably err on

1132
00:44:10,790 --> 00:44:07,520
the side of

1133
00:44:12,309 --> 00:44:10,800
of skepticism and that's why i prefer to

1134
00:44:13,910 --> 00:44:12,319
see these kinds of experiences that

1135
00:44:17,589 --> 00:44:13,920
you're talking about

1136
00:44:19,589 --> 00:44:17,599
as as i just described them as uh not

1137
00:44:21,670 --> 00:44:19,599
proving anything god

1138
00:44:22,870 --> 00:44:21,680
god for i mean the abs quite the

1139
00:44:24,309 --> 00:44:22,880
opposite

1140
00:44:26,550 --> 00:44:24,319
but uh

1141
00:44:29,829 --> 00:44:26,560
but shaking things up

1142
00:44:32,790 --> 00:44:29,839
and saying that uh we can't prematurely

1143
00:44:35,349 --> 00:44:32,800
close our accounts of reality with uh

1144
00:44:38,069 --> 00:44:35,359
reality as william james uh

1145
00:44:40,230 --> 00:44:38,079
uh put it i mean i went through a period

1146
00:44:43,030 --> 00:44:40,240
after this trip that i described where i

1147
00:44:45,349 --> 00:44:43,040
became convinced that i had figured out

1148
00:44:47,910 --> 00:44:45,359
uh the secret of

1149
00:44:49,349 --> 00:44:47,920
of life that i had this very complex

1150
00:44:51,910 --> 00:44:49,359
theology

1151
00:44:54,870 --> 00:44:51,920
uh that explained everything and i could

1152
00:44:56,470 --> 00:44:54,880
even explain the the problem of evil

1153
00:44:59,589 --> 00:44:56,480
and

1154
00:45:02,390 --> 00:44:59,599
i just eventually concluded that

1155
00:45:05,750 --> 00:45:02,400
uh well i you know i was semi-psychotic

1156
00:45:07,109 --> 00:45:05,760
for one i actually was worried that the

1157
00:45:08,950 --> 00:45:07,119
that because i had figured out the

1158
00:45:11,990 --> 00:45:08,960
secret of the universe that the universe

1159
00:45:14,470 --> 00:45:12,000
might uh be unnecessary it might

1160
00:45:17,670 --> 00:45:14,480
and might end when i look back on that

1161
00:45:20,390 --> 00:45:17,680
period i realized that i was

1162
00:45:23,510 --> 00:45:20,400
i was deceiving myself and that in my

1163
00:45:26,069 --> 00:45:23,520
desire to understand things i had

1164
00:45:29,910 --> 00:45:26,079
grasped at a straw

1165
00:45:30,950 --> 00:45:29,920
and um i have a kind of horror

1166
00:45:37,829 --> 00:45:30,960
of

1167
00:45:39,109 --> 00:45:37,839
uh prematurely and i actually get an

1168
00:45:40,230 --> 00:45:39,119
aesthetic

1169
00:45:41,430 --> 00:45:40,240
thrill

1170
00:45:44,390 --> 00:45:41,440
out of

1171
00:45:47,990 --> 00:45:44,400
being in a state of disbelief

1172
00:45:50,550 --> 00:45:48,000
or a suspension of uh belief not

1173
00:45:52,710 --> 00:45:50,560
skepticism and in the traditional sense

1174
00:45:54,630 --> 00:45:52,720
which is kind of knee dirt knee-jerk

1175
00:45:57,510 --> 00:45:54,640
aversion to uh

1176
00:45:59,670 --> 00:45:57,520
esp and religion and things like that

1177
00:46:01,109 --> 00:45:59,680
but just kind of an openness to whatever

1178
00:46:03,270 --> 00:46:01,119
is coming next

1179
00:46:06,309 --> 00:46:03,280
and part of that comes from realizing

1180
00:46:07,589 --> 00:46:06,319
that any theory or ideology or religion

1181
00:46:08,790 --> 00:46:07,599
that you have

1182
00:46:11,109 --> 00:46:08,800
is not

1183
00:46:13,190 --> 00:46:11,119
helping you see into the world usually

1184
00:46:15,670 --> 00:46:13,200
it's blocking your vision in some way

1185
00:46:17,510 --> 00:46:15,680
it's preventing you from seeing things

1186
00:46:18,550 --> 00:46:17,520
you're just seeing the ideology or the

1187
00:46:20,470 --> 00:46:18,560
theory

1188
00:46:23,589 --> 00:46:20,480
that's at least the way that i

1189
00:46:25,030 --> 00:46:23,599
justify my own world view to myself well

1190
00:46:28,309 --> 00:46:25,040
i think that's awesome and i think

1191
00:46:30,870 --> 00:46:28,319
that's why both you and i love science

1192
00:46:33,910 --> 00:46:30,880
the science of the promise of science is

1193
00:46:35,430 --> 00:46:33,920
that we can strip away our biases strip

1194
00:46:38,550 --> 00:46:35,440
away our

1195
00:46:41,430 --> 00:46:38,560
natural ability to form cultish kind of

1196
00:46:43,829 --> 00:46:41,440
belief systems of course those cultish

1197
00:46:46,309 --> 00:46:43,839
belief systems cut both ways right so if

1198
00:46:48,470 --> 00:46:46,319
we're going to believe that mind equals

1199
00:46:50,790 --> 00:46:48,480
brain or that we're a biological robot

1200
00:46:53,109 --> 00:46:50,800
in a meaningless universe that's just

1201
00:46:55,430 --> 00:46:53,119
another set of beliefs and metaphysical

1202
00:46:57,750 --> 00:46:55,440
assumptions and i'd say we do not have

1203
00:46:59,829 --> 00:46:57,760
we have not established that by

1204
00:47:01,750 --> 00:46:59,839
experimentation or observation and in

1205
00:47:03,430 --> 00:47:01,760
fact we've done just the opposite so

1206
00:47:06,790 --> 00:47:03,440
when i'm talking about near-death

1207
00:47:09,030 --> 00:47:06,800
experience i'm talking about the science

1208
00:47:11,829 --> 00:47:09,040
you know i just referenced

1209
00:47:13,910 --> 00:47:11,839
dr jan holden who i really enjoy talking

1210
00:47:15,990 --> 00:47:13,920
with him she's going to be at the

1211
00:47:18,390 --> 00:47:16,000
international association of near-death

1212
00:47:20,950 --> 00:47:18,400
studies they publish a peer-reviewed

1213
00:47:23,349 --> 00:47:20,960
journal they have skeptics on the

1214
00:47:25,670 --> 00:47:23,359
journal board i mean they are doing

1215
00:47:28,390 --> 00:47:25,680
science she wrote the handbook of

1216
00:47:30,630 --> 00:47:28,400
near-death experience with dr bruce

1217
00:47:32,950 --> 00:47:30,640
grayson from university of virginia

1218
00:47:34,950 --> 00:47:32,960
they're doing science they're publishing

1219
00:47:37,109 --> 00:47:34,960
in peer-reviewed journals carefully

1220
00:47:38,870 --> 00:47:37,119
controlled studies you know the the

1221
00:47:40,950 --> 00:47:38,880
study that she did that i always

1222
00:47:44,150 --> 00:47:40,960
reference and it was also replicated by

1223
00:47:46,309 --> 00:47:44,160
a researcher in the uk penny sartori a

1224
00:47:48,630 --> 00:47:46,319
pretty simple experiment they took a

1225
00:47:49,510 --> 00:47:48,640
group of people in a cardiac arrest

1226
00:47:51,750 --> 00:47:49,520
board

1227
00:47:53,190 --> 00:47:51,760
and they had a cardiac arrest and they

1228
00:47:55,109 --> 00:47:53,200
interviewed him afterwards and they

1229
00:47:57,349 --> 00:47:55,119
broke them into two groups

1230
00:47:58,950 --> 00:47:57,359
one group was the control group that had

1231
00:48:01,670 --> 00:47:58,960
a cardiac arrest

1232
00:48:04,069 --> 00:48:01,680
and didn't have a near-death experience

1233
00:48:06,550 --> 00:48:04,079
the other group had a cardiac arrest and

1234
00:48:08,470 --> 00:48:06,560
reported a near-death experience then

1235
00:48:10,309 --> 00:48:08,480
they did something very simple they

1236
00:48:13,190 --> 00:48:10,319
interviewed them in a structured

1237
00:48:13,910 --> 00:48:13,200
scientific way like good scientists can

1238
00:48:16,790 --> 00:48:13,920
do

1239
00:48:18,550 --> 00:48:16,800
about the resuscitation process which

1240
00:48:20,710 --> 00:48:18,560
happens at a time when they have a

1241
00:48:21,910 --> 00:48:20,720
non-functioning brain and they found

1242
00:48:24,790 --> 00:48:21,920
that the people who had the near-death

1243
00:48:27,510 --> 00:48:24,800
experience were statistically off the

1244
00:48:30,309 --> 00:48:27,520
charts more able to recall their

1245
00:48:32,390 --> 00:48:30,319
resuscitation and the other group they

1246
00:48:34,150 --> 00:48:32,400
said i don't recall anything i can't

1247
00:48:37,190 --> 00:48:34,160
answer these questions i can make up

1248
00:48:40,230 --> 00:48:37,200
something and that's the difference so

1249
00:48:43,430 --> 00:48:40,240
the point being there's a body of real

1250
00:48:45,270 --> 00:48:43,440
science peer-reviewed science behind

1251
00:48:47,829 --> 00:48:45,280
this it's just ignored because it

1252
00:48:50,470 --> 00:48:47,839
doesn't fit into the paradigm well here

1253
00:48:53,829 --> 00:48:50,480
i i think you may have seen that

1254
00:48:55,670 --> 00:48:53,839
i had a q a with rupert sheldrake

1255
00:48:56,790 --> 00:48:55,680
last summer

1256
00:48:57,670 --> 00:48:56,800
so

1257
00:48:59,829 --> 00:48:57,680
um

1258
00:49:02,870 --> 00:48:59,839
rupert sheldrake

1259
00:49:04,390 --> 00:49:02,880
is certainly one of the most if not the

1260
00:49:05,670 --> 00:49:04,400
most

1261
00:49:08,870 --> 00:49:05,680
prominent

1262
00:49:11,270 --> 00:49:08,880
uh scientific

1263
00:49:13,829 --> 00:49:11,280
proponent of

1264
00:49:17,109 --> 00:49:13,839
the possibility of

1265
00:49:20,630 --> 00:49:17,119
esp and other psychic phenomena

1266
00:49:22,950 --> 00:49:20,640
and uh he also believes in god

1267
00:49:25,829 --> 00:49:22,960
i assume he believes in the afterlife

1268
00:49:27,109 --> 00:49:25,839
although i'm i'm uh not sure

1269
00:49:29,510 --> 00:49:27,119
and

1270
00:49:30,630 --> 00:49:29,520
i don't believe in any of those things

1271
00:49:33,829 --> 00:49:30,640
and

1272
00:49:37,030 --> 00:49:33,839
yet i met sheldrake at a conference in

1273
00:49:39,030 --> 00:49:37,040
england um last summer and i was

1274
00:49:40,309 --> 00:49:39,040
i just really liked the guy he's

1275
00:49:42,069 --> 00:49:40,319
brilliant

1276
00:49:43,589 --> 00:49:42,079
and extremely knowledgeable and

1277
00:49:45,109 --> 00:49:43,599
sophisticated

1278
00:49:47,270 --> 00:49:45,119
when it comes to science as he should be

1279
00:49:48,470 --> 00:49:47,280
because he was trained at cambridge

1280
00:49:50,309 --> 00:49:48,480
um you know one of the great

1281
00:49:54,790 --> 00:49:50,319
universities in the world

1282
00:49:58,309 --> 00:49:54,800
and has a phd in in biology

1283
00:50:00,549 --> 00:49:58,319
and so i did a q a with him uh for

1284
00:50:03,510 --> 00:50:00,559
scientific american which is

1285
00:50:05,109 --> 00:50:03,520
you know the scientific american uh to

1286
00:50:09,270 --> 00:50:05,119
the extent it has an ideology it's

1287
00:50:11,510 --> 00:50:09,280
extremely skeptical and anti-anti-esp

1288
00:50:13,190 --> 00:50:11,520
it's got michael schermer the prominent

1289
00:50:14,790 --> 00:50:13,200
skeptic as a

1290
00:50:15,990 --> 00:50:14,800
as a columnist

1291
00:50:17,670 --> 00:50:16,000
but i

1292
00:50:19,030 --> 00:50:17,680
you know i i meet somebody like

1293
00:50:22,230 --> 00:50:19,040
sheldrake and i

1294
00:50:23,910 --> 00:50:22,240
i realize i i can't i can't just dismiss

1295
00:50:25,349 --> 00:50:23,920
this out of hand i haven't seen enough

1296
00:50:29,910 --> 00:50:25,359
to convince me

1297
00:50:31,670 --> 00:50:29,920
uh that esp is is real um and in part

1298
00:50:33,589 --> 00:50:31,680
because of uh

1299
00:50:36,790 --> 00:50:33,599
encountering susan blackmore and

1300
00:50:38,309 --> 00:50:36,800
interviewing her whom you just mentioned

1301
00:50:39,670 --> 00:50:38,319
but um

1302
00:50:41,829 --> 00:50:39,680
i don't know

1303
00:50:43,030 --> 00:50:41,839
there's some this is a crazy world we

1304
00:50:47,190 --> 00:50:43,040
live in

1305
00:50:49,030 --> 00:50:47,200
and uh and i do think that uh i'm sorry

1306
00:50:51,510 --> 00:50:49,040
i have to fall back to the position that

1307
00:50:53,109 --> 00:50:51,520
uh that you that i know you're tired of

1308
00:50:55,030 --> 00:50:53,119
hearing but that

1309
00:50:56,710 --> 00:50:55,040
more research needs to be done and more

1310
00:50:57,510 --> 00:50:56,720
thinking needs to be done about these

1311
00:50:59,910 --> 00:50:57,520
things

1312
00:51:02,230 --> 00:50:59,920
more research needs to be done as we

1313
00:51:04,150 --> 00:51:02,240
block that research at every turn you

1314
00:51:05,910 --> 00:51:04,160
know sheldrick's great i have great

1315
00:51:07,510 --> 00:51:05,920
admiration for him he's been on the show

1316
00:51:09,270 --> 00:51:07,520
probably a half dozen times and he wrote

1317
00:51:11,190 --> 00:51:09,280
the forward to my book why science is

1318
00:51:14,309 --> 00:51:11,200
wrong about almost everything

1319
00:51:15,190 --> 00:51:14,319
in in my book in in this show

1320
00:51:17,510 --> 00:51:15,200
we

1321
00:51:20,710 --> 00:51:17,520
dug extensively

1322
00:51:22,390 --> 00:51:20,720
into his esp research with dogs i know

1323
00:51:24,790 --> 00:51:22,400
you talked about it because i read

1324
00:51:26,230 --> 00:51:24,800
the article that you uh that you wrote

1325
00:51:28,710 --> 00:51:26,240
that you're the interview that you

1326
00:51:30,870 --> 00:51:28,720
published that you're referring to but

1327
00:51:33,589 --> 00:51:30,880
you probably didn't dig into it to the

1328
00:51:35,589 --> 00:51:33,599
extent that we did including his

1329
00:51:38,870 --> 00:51:35,599
debunker who come to completely

1330
00:51:40,790 --> 00:51:38,880
embarrasses himself dr richard wiseman

1331
00:51:42,150 --> 00:51:40,800
you know just the thumbnail sketch

1332
00:51:44,230 --> 00:51:42,160
sheldrick

1333
00:51:46,710 --> 00:51:44,240
has these reports from people that say

1334
00:51:48,630 --> 00:51:46,720
hey my dog seems to know

1335
00:51:50,470 --> 00:51:48,640
mysteriously when i'm coming home you

1336
00:51:53,430 --> 00:51:50,480
know i come home at odd hours my wife

1337
00:51:55,270 --> 00:51:53,440
says 15 minutes before you get there the

1338
00:51:57,190 --> 00:51:55,280
dog's at the door so he starts

1339
00:51:59,910 --> 00:51:57,200
collecting all these stories you know

1340
00:52:01,510 --> 00:51:59,920
just as a social as a biologist you know

1341
00:52:02,790 --> 00:52:01,520
he's interested in nature and how the

1342
00:52:04,309 --> 00:52:02,800
world works

1343
00:52:06,549 --> 00:52:04,319
and he gets enough of them and he says

1344
00:52:08,069 --> 00:52:06,559
okay i'm going to devise an experiment

1345
00:52:09,829 --> 00:52:08,079
the experiment's pretty easy right you

1346
00:52:11,750 --> 00:52:09,839
put a video camera on the dog you put a

1347
00:52:13,990 --> 00:52:11,760
video camera on the owner you send them

1348
00:52:17,349 --> 00:52:14,000
out you bring them back at random times

1349
00:52:19,589 --> 00:52:17,359
sheldrick did this experiment 200 times

1350
00:52:21,670 --> 00:52:19,599
got off the charts statistically

1351
00:52:24,470 --> 00:52:21,680
significant results anyone can go to his

1352
00:52:26,950 --> 00:52:24,480
website anyone can look at that

1353
00:52:30,069 --> 00:52:26,960
wiseman comes in does four trials

1354
00:52:32,710 --> 00:52:30,079
completely changes the protocol in a

1355
00:52:34,870 --> 00:52:32,720
really weird way and then

1356
00:52:37,670 --> 00:52:34,880
goes about this 10-year campaign of

1357
00:52:39,589 --> 00:52:37,680
debunking claiming he's the really

1358
00:52:41,990 --> 00:52:39,599
originator of this research it's

1359
00:52:45,190 --> 00:52:42,000
shameful so do we need more research

1360
00:52:47,349 --> 00:52:45,200
into it john sure i'm all for that do we

1361
00:52:49,910 --> 00:52:47,359
need a man on the moon effort to see

1362
00:52:51,030 --> 00:52:49,920
whether a near-death experience is what

1363
00:52:54,069 --> 00:52:51,040
it is

1364
00:52:56,950 --> 00:52:54,079
sure uh are we ever going to see that is

1365
00:52:59,030 --> 00:52:56,960
the system ingrained and devised in a

1366
00:53:00,470 --> 00:52:59,040
way to prevent that from happening you

1367
00:53:03,190 --> 00:53:00,480
betcha

1368
00:53:05,270 --> 00:53:03,200
i you know alex i i feel like this might

1369
00:53:06,870 --> 00:53:05,280
be dodging the issue a little bit it's

1370
00:53:08,309 --> 00:53:06,880
definitely dodging the issue but i'll

1371
00:53:10,230 --> 00:53:08,319
just try to

1372
00:53:11,910 --> 00:53:10,240
respond to that i

1373
00:53:13,589 --> 00:53:11,920
there's so many things that i care

1374
00:53:15,670 --> 00:53:13,599
passionately about

1375
00:53:17,109 --> 00:53:15,680
and one of the problems

1376
00:53:22,390 --> 00:53:17,119
as a

1377
00:53:23,190 --> 00:53:22,400
just i'm trying to finish my first novel

1378
00:53:25,510 --> 00:53:23,200
uh

1379
00:53:27,270 --> 00:53:25,520
this summer um because when i was a

1380
00:53:28,549 --> 00:53:27,280
little kid i wanted to write fiction and

1381
00:53:30,390 --> 00:53:28,559
i figured

1382
00:53:32,069 --> 00:53:30,400
you know i better get to it if i'm going

1383
00:53:32,950 --> 00:53:32,079
to do that

1384
00:53:34,630 --> 00:53:32,960
but

1385
00:53:38,230 --> 00:53:34,640
i have to

1386
00:53:40,470 --> 00:53:38,240
figure out what do i care about

1387
00:53:41,670 --> 00:53:40,480
most because i have to choose among all

1388
00:53:42,870 --> 00:53:41,680
the different things that i want to

1389
00:53:46,309 --> 00:53:42,880
write about

1390
00:53:47,910 --> 00:53:46,319
and um i you know i really

1391
00:53:49,349 --> 00:53:47,920
plunged into

1392
00:53:51,109 --> 00:53:49,359
a lot of the things that we're talking

1393
00:53:52,069 --> 00:53:51,119
about on this show

1394
00:53:53,910 --> 00:53:52,079
for

1395
00:53:56,549 --> 00:53:53,920
rational mysticism

1396
00:53:59,589 --> 00:53:56,559
and um and i got

1397
00:54:00,950 --> 00:53:59,599
uh i really got immersed in that and i

1398
00:54:02,950 --> 00:54:00,960
got

1399
00:54:04,470 --> 00:54:02,960
burned out on it to in a certain extent

1400
00:54:06,309 --> 00:54:04,480
just because

1401
00:54:08,309 --> 00:54:06,319
it's so

1402
00:54:11,270 --> 00:54:08,319
yeah i felt like i was shadow boxing

1403
00:54:13,190 --> 00:54:11,280
after a while uh that you know the

1404
00:54:16,069 --> 00:54:13,200
uh i think i understood something and

1405
00:54:17,270 --> 00:54:16,079
then it would start dissolving uh under

1406
00:54:18,950 --> 00:54:17,280
my uh

1407
00:54:21,750 --> 00:54:18,960
under my grasp

1408
00:54:25,349 --> 00:54:21,760
and what i've become more concerned with

1409
00:54:27,829 --> 00:54:25,359
over time recently is

1410
00:54:29,030 --> 00:54:27,839
real world problems like war

1411
00:54:33,990 --> 00:54:29,040
and

1412
00:54:35,670 --> 00:54:34,000
some major sources of human suffering

1413
00:54:38,390 --> 00:54:35,680
and especially war just because our

1414
00:54:41,589 --> 00:54:38,400
country is by far the most warlike

1415
00:54:44,630 --> 00:54:41,599
in the world and because i am

1416
00:54:47,109 --> 00:54:44,640
shocked every single day by the things

1417
00:54:49,910 --> 00:54:47,119
that i read about my country and its

1418
00:54:51,670 --> 00:54:49,920
conduct in in the world we're killing

1419
00:54:53,910 --> 00:54:51,680
babies

1420
00:54:55,829 --> 00:54:53,920
and nobody really gives a damn i mean if

1421
00:54:57,510 --> 00:54:55,839
you if you can't

1422
00:54:59,510 --> 00:54:57,520
i just don't understand the moral

1423
00:55:01,990 --> 00:54:59,520
mindset of our country now i think we're

1424
00:55:03,750 --> 00:55:02,000
more hawkish than we were almost at any

1425
00:55:06,390 --> 00:55:03,760
time in my life and i lived through the

1426
00:55:08,390 --> 00:55:06,400
cold war and the vietnam war

1427
00:55:11,030 --> 00:55:08,400
uh you know where people are flocking to

1428
00:55:12,790 --> 00:55:11,040
a movie like american sniper about a

1429
00:55:13,910 --> 00:55:12,800
psychopathic killer of women and

1430
00:55:15,109 --> 00:55:13,920
children

1431
00:55:17,349 --> 00:55:15,119
and so

1432
00:55:19,750 --> 00:55:17,359
but john where is the link the link is

1433
00:55:21,589 --> 00:55:19,760
right there it's obvious

1434
00:55:22,829 --> 00:55:21,599
materialism

1435
00:55:25,990 --> 00:55:22,839
leads to

1436
00:55:29,109 --> 00:55:26,000
materialism they're linked when we have

1437
00:55:31,990 --> 00:55:29,119
a paradigm that tells us we have no free

1438
00:55:35,589 --> 00:55:32,000
will that we are biological robots that

1439
00:55:36,790 --> 00:55:35,599
we live in a meaningless universe we are

1440
00:55:39,510 --> 00:55:36,800
set up

1441
00:55:41,990 --> 00:55:39,520
to be numbed by the kind of atrocities

1442
00:55:45,430 --> 00:55:42,000
and absurdities you're talking about

1443
00:55:47,349 --> 00:55:45,440
they go hand in hand we can't address

1444
00:55:50,069 --> 00:55:47,359
one without addressing the other that's

1445
00:55:53,990 --> 00:55:50,079
my position you know i disagree with

1446
00:55:56,470 --> 00:55:54,000
that i think that there are all too many

1447
00:55:59,589 --> 00:55:56,480
religious fanatics with supernatural

1448
00:56:01,510 --> 00:55:59,599
views of the world and the good battling

1449
00:56:02,470 --> 00:56:01,520
well we need to transcend that too of

1450
00:56:05,750 --> 00:56:02,480
course

1451
00:56:07,750 --> 00:56:05,760
yeah um as far as the hard the the the

1452
00:56:10,150 --> 00:56:07,760
atheists the hardcore materialists some

1453
00:56:11,910 --> 00:56:10,160
of them are nasty and might support

1454
00:56:13,190 --> 00:56:11,920
hawkish foreign policies but most of the

1455
00:56:17,430 --> 00:56:13,200
ones i know

1456
00:56:20,390 --> 00:56:17,440
are liberal progressive peacenik green

1457
00:56:23,270 --> 00:56:20,400
type so i'm not sure i can blame

1458
00:56:24,390 --> 00:56:23,280
the ills of the world on

1459
00:56:28,789 --> 00:56:24,400
material

1460
00:56:32,309 --> 00:56:28,799
maybe capitalism yes but capitalism is

1461
00:56:34,549 --> 00:56:32,319
not uh identical to uh materialism i

1462
00:56:38,710 --> 00:56:34,559
think capitalism in this country is

1463
00:56:41,990 --> 00:56:38,720
is also just grotesquely out of control

1464
00:56:44,870 --> 00:56:42,000
uh more so than at any time in my life

1465
00:56:46,470 --> 00:56:44,880
uh as well and that is linked to the uh

1466
00:56:48,630 --> 00:56:46,480
the militarism

1467
00:56:51,430 --> 00:56:48,640
um and the you know the

1468
00:56:53,990 --> 00:56:51,440
division of the world into uh us

1469
00:56:56,710 --> 00:56:54,000
us and them i'm just trying to i'm just

1470
00:56:59,190 --> 00:56:56,720
trying to explain why i you know i

1471
00:57:01,349 --> 00:56:59,200
interviewed rupert sheldrake but i

1472
00:57:02,390 --> 00:57:01,359
didn't set aside

1473
00:57:04,630 --> 00:57:02,400
long

1474
00:57:07,190 --> 00:57:04,640
a lots of time to

1475
00:57:09,510 --> 00:57:07,200
get into his research myself

1476
00:57:12,710 --> 00:57:09,520
and figure out what's really going on

1477
00:57:14,950 --> 00:57:12,720
and uh and defend it defend his views if

1478
00:57:18,150 --> 00:57:14,960
i think that they are really

1479
00:57:19,109 --> 00:57:18,160
substantive to do that properly

1480
00:57:21,430 --> 00:57:19,119
um

1481
00:57:23,510 --> 00:57:21,440
would have really required more of a

1482
00:57:25,430 --> 00:57:23,520
commitment that i was willing to make

1483
00:57:27,750 --> 00:57:25,440
just because there's so much other stuff

1484
00:57:29,510 --> 00:57:27,760
i have to that i want to do i feel like

1485
00:57:30,870 --> 00:57:29,520
i need to write another book about war

1486
00:57:32,230 --> 00:57:30,880
tell us about that in the time we have

1487
00:57:34,309 --> 00:57:32,240
you've been so generous with your time

1488
00:57:36,470 --> 00:57:34,319
and you've been so open to this kind of

1489
00:57:37,990 --> 00:57:36,480
grilling that i i think is really

1490
00:57:39,990 --> 00:57:38,000
helpful i mean i'd love to be able to

1491
00:57:42,069 --> 00:57:40,000
have this kind of open dialogue but tell

1492
00:57:45,030 --> 00:57:42,079
us about you you've touched a little bit

1493
00:57:46,630 --> 00:57:45,040
about the on the end of war and tell us

1494
00:57:48,309 --> 00:57:46,640
about the novel you're writing too uh

1495
00:57:50,950 --> 00:57:48,319
what a what an interesting kind of

1496
00:57:53,190 --> 00:57:50,960
project for you huh sure um okay well

1497
00:57:55,829 --> 00:57:53,200
first the end of war i you know i

1498
00:57:57,190 --> 00:57:55,839
i'm 61 years old i

1499
00:57:58,309 --> 00:57:57,200
um i

1500
00:58:00,710 --> 00:57:58,319
was

1501
00:58:02,710 --> 00:58:00,720
i had a draft card uh yeah i could have

1502
00:58:03,990 --> 00:58:02,720
ended up going to vietnam but i got a

1503
00:58:06,390 --> 00:58:04,000
high number

1504
00:58:09,750 --> 00:58:06,400
in the lottery but i grew up during the

1505
00:58:12,230 --> 00:58:09,760
cold war terrified that nuclear war was

1506
00:58:15,190 --> 00:58:12,240
going to uh end

1507
00:58:16,710 --> 00:58:15,200
everything at any moment

1508
00:58:19,030 --> 00:58:16,720
i've written a lot about war and

1509
00:58:22,390 --> 00:58:19,040
national security issues throughout my

1510
00:58:24,789 --> 00:58:22,400
uh career i naively hoped that when the

1511
00:58:28,069 --> 00:58:24,799
cold war ended that that maybe we would

1512
00:58:30,630 --> 00:58:28,079
enter a period of global peace

1513
00:58:33,190 --> 00:58:30,640
and uh i

1514
00:58:35,750 --> 00:58:33,200
i i i obviously things have gone in the

1515
00:58:37,349 --> 00:58:35,760
opposite direction especially since 9 11

1516
00:58:40,789 --> 00:58:37,359
i happened to

1517
00:58:43,349 --> 00:58:40,799
give a sermon in a church in my hometown

1518
00:58:45,270 --> 00:58:43,359
right after the u.s invasion of iraq and

1519
00:58:46,950 --> 00:58:45,280
in the discussion after my sermon which

1520
00:58:47,829 --> 00:58:46,960
is on the roots of

1521
00:58:51,190 --> 00:58:47,839
war

1522
00:58:53,670 --> 00:58:51,200
i realized that almost everybody

1523
00:58:55,829 --> 00:58:53,680
was extremely pessimistic about the

1524
00:58:58,230 --> 00:58:55,839
possibility of ending war once and for

1525
00:59:00,630 --> 00:58:58,240
all virtually no one thinks that that's

1526
00:59:02,870 --> 00:59:00,640
possible and i'm talking these were

1527
00:59:05,109 --> 00:59:02,880
liberal democrats

1528
00:59:07,349 --> 00:59:05,119
these weren't republican hawks in the

1529
00:59:09,750 --> 00:59:07,359
audience and now i've i've interviewed

1530
00:59:11,910 --> 00:59:09,760
people all over the world and uh the

1531
00:59:13,829 --> 00:59:11,920
vast majority of people think that war

1532
00:59:15,030 --> 00:59:13,839
is part of the human condition

1533
00:59:16,950 --> 00:59:15,040
which is

1534
00:59:19,510 --> 00:59:16,960
a horrible

1535
00:59:20,309 --> 00:59:19,520
fatalistic belief that can become that

1536
00:59:22,549 --> 00:59:20,319
is

1537
00:59:24,549 --> 00:59:22,559
self-fulfilling if you think the world

1538
00:59:25,910 --> 00:59:24,559
will always be dangerous and warlike

1539
00:59:28,870 --> 00:59:25,920
then of course you're what you're going

1540
00:59:32,390 --> 00:59:28,880
to want a strong military to make sure

1541
00:59:33,910 --> 00:59:32,400
you win the wars when they break out and

1542
00:59:37,589 --> 00:59:33,920
as a result

1543
00:59:39,990 --> 00:59:37,599
uh we've got this extreme militarism in

1544
00:59:42,950 --> 00:59:40,000
this country that is

1545
00:59:45,510 --> 00:59:42,960
is justified to a certain extent by

1546
00:59:47,109 --> 00:59:45,520
crappy scientific theories about war

1547
00:59:50,309 --> 00:59:47,119
being an innate

1548
00:59:52,710 --> 00:59:50,319
uh human impulse and especially in males

1549
00:59:53,589 --> 00:59:52,720
so i wrote the end of war basically to

1550
00:59:56,870 --> 00:59:53,599
show

1551
00:59:59,990 --> 00:59:56,880
that war is not inevitable when you look

1552
01:00:02,870 --> 01:00:00,000
at the the various theories of war what

1553
01:00:04,309 --> 01:00:02,880
they primarily show is that war

1554
01:00:07,270 --> 01:00:04,319
begets war

1555
01:00:08,549 --> 01:00:07,280
the war uh the fear of war

1556
01:00:09,829 --> 01:00:08,559
makes people

1557
01:00:13,270 --> 01:00:09,839
warlike

1558
01:00:16,630 --> 01:00:13,280
uh and makes them carry out preemptive

1559
01:00:18,870 --> 01:00:16,640
strikes like we did in uh in iraq

1560
01:00:20,470 --> 01:00:18,880
that perpetuate war they don't end the

1561
01:00:22,230 --> 01:00:20,480
violence out there they make more

1562
01:00:24,150 --> 01:00:22,240
violence

1563
01:00:25,589 --> 01:00:24,160
so i wrote this book came out a couple

1564
01:00:28,870 --> 01:00:25,599
of years ago

1565
01:00:31,349 --> 01:00:28,880
and i i still write about war constantly

1566
01:00:33,829 --> 01:00:31,359
on my scientific blog

1567
01:00:36,230 --> 01:00:33,839
just trying to get people to wake up and

1568
01:00:38,549 --> 01:00:36,240
realize how extraordinarily violent and

1569
01:00:41,589 --> 01:00:38,559
hawkish we've become here in the united

1570
01:00:43,430 --> 01:00:41,599
states i haven't really had

1571
01:00:45,270 --> 01:00:43,440
much of an impact

1572
01:00:47,270 --> 01:00:45,280
yet but i'm going to keep

1573
01:00:48,390 --> 01:00:47,280
hammering away at it and hope for the

1574
01:00:49,670 --> 01:00:48,400
best

1575
01:00:51,829 --> 01:00:49,680
what are you doing with the novel are

1576
01:00:54,069 --> 01:00:51,839
you doing something different the novel

1577
01:00:55,990 --> 01:00:54,079
actually is going back to a lot of the

1578
01:00:57,190 --> 01:00:56,000
issues that we're talking about it's

1579
01:01:01,030 --> 01:00:57,200
about a

1580
01:01:03,510 --> 01:01:01,040
a science writer who has all kinds of uh

1581
01:01:05,910 --> 01:01:03,520
psychological problems extreme anxiety

1582
01:01:08,630 --> 01:01:05,920
and depression he gets a brain implant

1583
01:01:10,789 --> 01:01:08,640
that turns him into buddha

1584
01:01:13,030 --> 01:01:10,799
i'll just leave it at that well that's a

1585
01:01:14,710 --> 01:01:13,040
great great lead-in sounds like what's

1586
01:01:16,470 --> 01:01:14,720
that going to be out

1587
01:01:17,750 --> 01:01:16,480
oh i'm just finishing i don't even know

1588
01:01:19,910 --> 01:01:17,760
if it's going to be published i don't

1589
01:01:21,190 --> 01:01:19,920
have a publisher yet this is uh you know

1590
01:01:22,470 --> 01:01:21,200
this is a

1591
01:01:23,270 --> 01:01:22,480
my first

1592
01:01:25,430 --> 01:01:23,280
time

1593
01:01:27,510 --> 01:01:25,440
writing um

1594
01:01:31,589 --> 01:01:27,520
uh fiction at length

1595
01:01:34,230 --> 01:01:31,599
and uh i if if all goes well i'm hoping

1596
01:01:35,030 --> 01:01:34,240
within the next year or two um it'll be

1597
01:01:36,630 --> 01:01:35,040
out

1598
01:01:39,750 --> 01:01:36,640
that's gonna be awesome and folks who

1599
01:01:42,710 --> 01:01:39,760
want to stay up on your writing the best

1600
01:01:45,190 --> 01:01:42,720
place is john horgan.com

1601
01:01:47,510 --> 01:01:45,200
yeah uh yeah or my my scientific

1602
01:01:49,510 --> 01:01:47,520
american uh blog which is called

1603
01:01:51,829 --> 01:01:49,520
crosscheck so just

1604
01:01:53,829 --> 01:01:51,839
google horgan and crosscheck and you'll

1605
01:01:56,390 --> 01:01:53,839
find it and i wrote about all the stuff

1606
01:01:58,470 --> 01:01:56,400
that we're talking about and war and

1607
01:01:59,910 --> 01:01:58,480
and buddhism and all sorts of things on

1608
01:02:01,829 --> 01:01:59,920
that yeah we didn't have a chance to

1609
01:02:04,069 --> 01:02:01,839
talk about buddhism but we talked about

1610
01:02:06,789 --> 01:02:04,079
quite a bit and i really do appreciate

1611
01:02:08,870 --> 01:02:06,799
your openness in your time and i'm a fan

1612
01:02:11,589 --> 01:02:08,880
so even though i'm part of the loyal

1613
01:02:14,150 --> 01:02:11,599
opposition as i described it i'm gonna

1614
01:02:15,829 --> 01:02:14,160
continue staying and staying on top of

1615
01:02:18,069 --> 01:02:15,839
what you're doing thanks so much for

1616
01:02:20,870 --> 01:02:18,079
joining me today john thank you alex i

1617
01:02:22,950 --> 01:02:20,880
really enjoyed it thanks again to john

1618
01:02:25,190 --> 01:02:22,960
horgan for joining me today on skeptico

1619
01:02:27,870 --> 01:02:25,200
one question to tee up for you from this

1620
01:02:30,390 --> 01:02:27,880
interview what do you think about

1621
01:02:33,589 --> 01:02:30,400
quasi-materialism his idea that he is by

1622
01:02:36,069 --> 01:02:33,599
default a materialist because anything

1623
01:02:39,030 --> 01:02:36,079
we would ever know about consciousness

1624
01:02:41,589 --> 01:02:39,040
or the mind is going to come through

1625
01:02:44,630 --> 01:02:41,599
our brain and therefore we're brain

1626
01:02:47,670 --> 01:02:44,640
based so it is ultimately a materialist

1627
01:02:50,630 --> 01:02:47,680
position i hope i teed that up fairly if

1628
01:02:52,150 --> 01:02:50,640
not maybe someone can rework it for me

1629
01:02:54,870 --> 01:02:52,160
the place to give me some feedback on

1630
01:02:57,510 --> 01:02:54,880
that of course is at skeptico.com

1631
01:02:58,789 --> 01:02:57,520
s-k-e-p-t-i-k-o

1632
01:03:01,829 --> 01:02:58,799
i don't know if i'll have the new

1633
01:03:03,990 --> 01:03:01,839
skeptico site up by the time this comes

1634
01:03:05,910 --> 01:03:04,000
out but i do have a new website in

1635
01:03:08,630 --> 01:03:05,920
somewhat of a new direction that we're

1636
01:03:10,630 --> 01:03:08,640
going with getting this information out

1637
01:03:12,789 --> 01:03:10,640
but i'm tipping my hand more on that to

1638
01:03:15,510 --> 01:03:12,799
come in the meantime go check out

1639
01:03:18,309 --> 01:03:15,520
skeptico.com in order to comment on this

1640
01:03:21,109 --> 01:03:18,319
show or connect with me on facebook or

1641
01:03:24,470 --> 01:03:21,119
to jump on over to the forum and start a

1642
01:03:26,789 --> 01:03:24,480
dialogue over there i do have a number

1643
01:03:29,270 --> 01:03:26,799
of really good shows coming up many of

1644
01:03:31,510 --> 01:03:29,280
which you listeners have helped me

1645
01:03:33,670 --> 01:03:31,520
tremendously in either booking the

1646
01:03:35,670 --> 01:03:33,680
guests or even in formulating some of

1647
01:03:38,230 --> 01:03:35,680
the questions that we're doing

1648
01:03:40,870 --> 01:03:38,240
so i welcome anyone who wants to get

1649
01:03:43,190 --> 01:03:40,880
involved in the show in that way many of

1650
01:03:45,510 --> 01:03:43,200
you have done that um just shoot me an

1651
01:03:46,390 --> 01:03:45,520
email tell me who you'd like to see on

1652
01:03:48,549 --> 01:03:46,400
and then

1653
01:03:51,190 --> 01:03:48,559
be ready because invariably i'll say

1654
01:03:53,510 --> 01:03:51,200
okay why don't you go about helping me

1655
01:03:55,270 --> 01:03:53,520
book that guest and framing up the

1656
01:03:57,430 --> 01:03:55,280
interview a little bit and if you have

1657
01:03:59,750 --> 01:03:57,440
the follow-through to do that then we

1658
01:04:01,910 --> 01:03:59,760
will most likely find a way to get that

1659
01:04:04,870 --> 01:04:01,920
person on and you'll become a part of

1660
01:04:07,349 --> 01:04:04,880
the show which is something i absolutely

1661
01:04:10,150 --> 01:04:07,359
love is that engagement with

1662
01:04:12,950 --> 01:04:10,160
you guys at that level of

1663
01:04:14,710 --> 01:04:12,960
really forming what we do here so that's

1664
01:04:17,750 --> 01:04:14,720
great fun for me and if you enjoy that

1665
01:04:21,510 --> 01:04:17,760
kind of stuff please join me so i guess

1666
01:04:23,990 --> 01:04:21,520
that's about it for this episode i'll be

1667
01:04:24,870 --> 01:04:24,000
back with you in a couple of weeks until